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Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

Um, no. The "ALL" is referring to every model in your army, whether Index or Codex, that can access THE Librarius discipline

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Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

Do you have proof that it means only "all of the psykers in the book with the Librarius discipline" as opposed to "all psykers with the Librarius discipline" like it states? Your "it is always understood" seems to be more that you are making an assumption.

It has been confirmed I'm sure.. somewhere. That codex rules apply to index models. Such as chapter tactics etc.

The designers would be my first offer of proof. They specified how to use index models that were not in a codex. In that specification they gave a list of what part(s) of the index rules get modified. Psyker powers were not on this list. As such, psykers use their index list until either a book comes out that specifically grants index models use of a rule or until the designers change their list.
IIRC in past editions of 40K there were variations of USRs that were modified or changed from the base USR without changing names. A player knew that the modified version of that rule that appeared in his book only applied to models that came from that book and did not cover other models in his army not from that book.
This also applied to point costs and was the subject of many complaints. Again IIRC SoB rhinos at one point cost more than SM rhinos even though they were identical in every way. The sister player had to pay the cost in her "codex" even though the SM rhino was cheaper.
Let's be honest GW couldn't edit itself out of a wet paper bag with a flamer. They probably intend for index librarians to use the codex but are either too lazy or careless just to say so. HIWP is to allow the codex usage but RAW it's a no go.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Actually the statement refers to ALL models with the <Psyker> keyword within your army/detachments that say they have access to THE Librarius discipline.I

The "All" that you highlight is used to mean "all (of the models in this book)" use..... It is always understood that unless specified somewhere that the rules in 1 book only refer to the models in that book. Otherwise what happens when GW makes 2 different rules with the same name (as they've done in the past)? Do all models use this same rule regardless of which book they come from? Of course not, players know that that specific form of that rule only applies to the models in that book.

You're adding the phrase in brackets. It's not there or meant.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
They probably intend for index librarians to use the codex but are either too lazy or careless just to say so. HIWP is to allow the codex usage but RAW it's a no go.

But that is your opinion. My opinion (and the opinion shared by numerous other poster here) is that RAW and RAI, there is only 1 Librarius discipline and it exists in its most updated form in the Codex.
Therefore if a psyker has access to that discipline, whether Index or Codex, you use the codex version.

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Of course I added the words in brackets, that's what the brackets mean and of course it's my opinion of RAW. Why would I parrot someone else's opinion? You're free to play 40K however you wish but your opinion is no better than mine until GW says one way or another.

Deleted nm

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
.... until GW says one way or another.

Which they have by allowing us to use a Datasheet for a model that can use X discipline, which just so happens to be currently located in the Codex

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Which they haven't by being more specific in their upgrade statement as to what is allowed to be used from the codex for an index model.
As far as I'm concerned the more specific statement outweighs a general statement.

Just to go back to GW history there used to be a rule for Orks that if you painted your vehicle red it got to move further than the same not red model. Nobody ever thought that that rule would apply to Blood Angel vehicles even though I'm pretty certain that the red rule did not specify any particular vehicle.

Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

"They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
So things like chapter tactics and stratagems. Ok this clearly includes psychic powers but isn't explciit.. what else.

"Alongside new expanded and updated background, you’ll find a wealth of rules content: army specific Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, Tactical Objectives, psychic powers and more besides. "
Ok a list of new rules- so more specific army wide bonuses index unit can use.

Also

" In all cases, these [codex rules] will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book"

And finally

"In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets."
So we are expected to use most recent rules- and of course psychic powers are new rules.

Nothing is telling me the intent of the designers is not to use the new psychic rules for index units.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Which they haven't by being more specific in their upgrade statement as to what is allowed to be used from the codex for an index model.
As far as I'm concerned the more specific statement outweighs a general statement.

Actually, a codex statement about psykers using a specific discipline would look to be more specific than a general statement about upgrades from the designer commentary.

Thanks again Captyn_Bob! Spot on references as usual

So to recap, you always use the most recent rules. We are given special permission to use the Index datasheets that were not included in the Codex, but otherwise still use the newest rules.

Since the Librarius discipline is not listed power-by-power on the Index sheet, we must refer to the Codex to know what powers are available, because those listed in the Index have been specifically replaced, expended on and updated.

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ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

All of this is not part of the official FAQs. Its just blah blah.

p5freak wrote:

ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.

Yes it does work with an index librarian on a bike as it is a power he could end up with. The Codex says they get the power (RAW), Captyn_Bob pointed out other areas where you use the most recent rules, which points out RAI.

p5freak wrote:

ah64pilot5 wrote:I don't play BA, so I am assuming that Wings of Sanguinus is one of the powers for this point.
I have not yet played any games with random abilities, always chosen ones, with that said, for the Librarian on a bike, why would you even chose that power in the first place if your movies already faster than what the power would grant? Simply give them a more useful power....

Yes Wings of sanguinius is a BA psychic power, and a very powerful one. It increases move to 12, adds the FLY keyword, and allows to reroll failed charges. BA have a librarian dreadnought. But it doesnt work with a index librarian on bike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Since we are discussing designers intent- let's look at the intro to codexs article.

All of this is not part of the official FAQs. Its just blah blah.

Come to think of it, the Bike Librarian has access to the Librarius discipline only, so it can't even get access to Wings. This is a non-issue.

I also thought of another way to look as the "page number" reference. GW has stated that a Codex replaces all datasheets and rules posted in the corresponding Index (this includes psychic powers)
So in the case where we are allowed to use an Index datasheet that refers to a page in the Index, we should use the rules from the Codex that are on that page in the Index.
So simply photo-copy the Librarius discipline from the Codex and paste it over Index page 10 and your can still refer to page 10 for the rules required to use

Easy and legal solution (and is essentially what GW means when they same X has replaced Y)

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 doctortom wrote:


Yes it does work with an index librarian on a bike as it is a power he could end up with. The Codex says they get the power (RAW), Captyn_Bob pointed out other areas where you use the most recent rules, which points out RAI.

It doesnt work. His movement cannot be increased to 12, because its already 14.

The jump pack librarian is also already movement 12 and in the codex.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The jump pack librarian is also already movement 12 and in the codex.

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

 Galef wrote:

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

What ? There is a BA librarian on a bike in the index imperium 1. Why doesnt he have access to the BA (index) discipline ?

p5freak wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Exactly. If the power doesn't do anything for the unit, then just don't cast it. But again I must reiterate that this is a non-issue since Bike Libbies are not given access to the BA discipline.

What ? There is a BA librarian on a bike in the index imperium 1. Why doesnt he have access to the BA (index) discipline ?

Because Index Imperium 1 does not have a BA Librarian on bike datasheet. It has a datasheet for a regular datasheet and a BA section that says to use the units in the earlier section.
That section is also what allowed a Bike Libbie access to BA powers (actually, someone check that for me, did the Index even have BA powers?)

Since BAs have their own codex, there is no legal way to "give" a Biek Libbie access to any other discipline but Librarius.
Remember, we have permission to use the Index datasheet and options listed on that sheet only. Nothing gives permission to use ANY other part of the Index that has been update (i.e. all the BA, DA and GK rules)

So you can still take a Bike Libbie in a BA army and it gains whatever rules come with the BA chapter tactics (because the codex says so), but unless it specifically states that Astartes Psyker units automatically gain access to the BA psychic discipline, you are still restricted to the options listed on the Bike Libbie datasheet (which only says Librarius)

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BA most certainly do have access to the exact same Libby on a Bike that normal SM do, it's listed on p89 of Index1. It also specifies that he gains his powers from the Sanquinary Discipline. So he gets access to the BA codex powers per your argument.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
BA most certainly do have access to the exact same Libby on a Bike that normal SM do, it's listed on p89 of Index1. It also specifies that he gains his powers from the Sanquinary Discipline. So he gets access to the BA codex powers per your argument.

So does the Index have a separate BA libbie Datasheet, or does it refer you back to the regular SM datasheets?
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

As I mentioned, GW is allowing us to use the DATASHEETS for models/units that were not updated in a Codex. All other parts of the Index that have been updated are outdated are not valid (see my earlier comments on the Librarius discipline).
So while you can still use a Bike Libbie and give him the BA chapter tactic (and all that comes with), the only datasheet available grants access to the Librarius discipline, NOT Sanguinary.

I do not have the BA codex, so correct me if I am wrong, but I imagine is says some thing similar to the SM codex "models WITH ACCESS to the Sanguinary discipline may use the powers below..."
So what grants access?

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It says right at the bottom of the page that the libby on a bike uses the sanguniary discipline. It just uses the regular SM data sheet rather than print up the exact same info again.

 Galef wrote:
If it is the later, I am struggling to se how you are able to access the Sanguinary discipline.

Perhaps read the rulebooks in question before commenting on them? If you had bothered to read you'll see an explicit instruction on page 89 of Index: Imperium 1.

f a Space Marines unit does not appear on the list below, it cannot be from the Blood Angels Chapter, and so cannot have the BLOOD ANGELS Faction keyword. BLOOD ANGELS PSYKERS generate their psychic powers from the Sanguinary discipline (below) instead of the Librarius discipline.

You've seriously just invalidated everything you've said in this thread because you don't even own/have read the rulebooks in question.

Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

 frightnight wrote:
Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

No, the Codex only overrules datasheets.

In any case, the Codex gives you permission to use the Storm even if the Index doesn't.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 frightnight wrote:
Aren't those rules invalidated by the new Codex, though? If the new BA Dex gave them access to Land Speeder Storms, you're saying they would not be BLOOD ANGELS because of the Index wording.

The flowchart says to only use the datasheet and possibly wargear from the index, not the army rules.

No, the Codex only overrules datasheets.

In any case, the Codex gives you permission to use the Storm even if the Index doesn't.

But that index rule says "cannot" as in "never can". If the codex doesn't overrule it, suddenly we have a situation where Storms have a datasheet with LEGION: BLOOD ANGELS in it but the Index says they can never have that because it's not in the Index list, and we're in an error loop and are our own grandparents.

I'm not arguing this is so, and definitely not that BA libbys don't have Sanguinary, just that if that's your case there's unforeseen repercussions (in GW rules? NEVER!!!!1!)

Except the Datasheet where the storm has <CHAPTER> is not the same one as the one where it has BLOOD ANGELS.

Regardless, it's still not in the Index list, which is completely inclusive with "cannot".

EDIT: It can be argued that the Codex implicitly allows the Storm to be taken with the BA keyword. However, there is no "specific overrules general" rule in 8th, so if the Index states "cannot" we're in a conundrum of contradictory rules.