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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




With the trouble I've been having putting up competitive games against my hyper competitive cheesing local meta I've come up with a Christmas Wishlist for vanilla SM.

I don't think it makes us (them?) some uber codex but I think it opens more tactical gameplay and gives marines a better feel.

There are still lots of things I'd like to see that I haven't gone into here (better strategems/psychic list) but here's my wish list. Feel free to tear it down you heart too small grinch faced ba-humbugs (no really, I'm begging for constructive criticism outside of screw you marine fanboy)

Main problems I've had with my marines:
-Terrible mobility
-No screens
-over priced tacs
-inability to deal with hordes/infantry
-Weaksauce termies
-Lack of board control
-Squishy armor
-Pointless CC troops
-lack of good deepstrike options
-IG does everything better

Assault cannons actually assault weapons (14 points? roughly 6 storm bolters trading rf for -1 ap)
-Assault 12, s4, -1 ap, 24" range

Grav should have range of 36"
-Allow termies, dreads and tanks to use it (grav sponsons please!!)

Flamers d6(d3, 2d3?) auto hits per 5 models in the enemy unit. 12" range, +1 ap (save 5+ goes to 4+) No cover save

Tacs - 11 points

Scouts - 9 points (Templar acolytes should be 7)

Interecessors - 20 points
-guns should be rapid fire 2, -1 ap, 30"

Assault marines - 13 points
-2 attacks base
-2 point jump packs
-if enemy falls back get reactive move (charge? free move? 4-6" consolidate move? round of attacks that hit on 6s?)
-+1 attack on charge

Vanguard vets
--1 ap on chainswords or +1 str on lightning claws
--1 to be hit or +1 to saves if advance\charge and on turn they are deployed if they use deepstrike jumppacks
-same reactive move as the assault marines
-Advance + charge
-Can shoot pistols if they advance

Termies
-2 special weapons per 5 (open up options, grav, new ass-cans, plamsa...)
-Captain uses a powerfist (get rid of that stupid powersword)
-3 wounds, 2+/4++
-Special storm bolters get -1 ap
-Raise cost to 30 ppm
-Assaults should have s5/t6

Sternguard
-No penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons? Not too sure how I feel about it but would make mixed heavy weapon squads more practical.

Reivers
--1ap on combat knives
-stun grenade change. On a 4+ charged unit cannot fire overwatch? On a 6 no overwatch and -1 to hit?

Chaplin
-1 deny per turn (templars can attempt to deny any powers)
-Re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 in fight phase

Centurions
-Deepstrike
-Assaults move 8" or can move after deepstrike, +1 attack, 45 points
-4 wounds
-No need for omniscope on assaults
-Devs 4++ should only be 65 points

Deepstrike denial markers
-Call them neural disruptors or something. 5-10 points each deny deeepstrike/SfS/undergound pop ups or whatever w/in 9" remove once enemy gets w/in 4-6"?
-Hell make it a strat, for each command point you get 2?

Armor
-Preds are too squishy but shouldn't get much cheaper
-t8 or some sort of -1 to damage dealt or give them a 2+/5++?re-roll failed saves?5+++?
-power of the machine spirit
-Or give them chapter tactics
--1 to hit first turn? (smoke launchers)

-Land raiders
-t9? 4++? something to keep them alive as they pop 1st turn and I don't think making them cheaper is the answer re-rolling failed saves?
-Disembark AFTER movement but count as moving? Call it rapid deployment or something.
--1 to hit first turn? (smoke launchers)

-Razorbacks
--1 to hit unless we end up giving them strat then I'm not sure what to do. Reduce cost back down to pre CA and let them pop?
-Something like a kustom forcefield would be awesome for these guys. Infantry units wholly within 6" (no daisy chaining) get a 5+ FNP, count as in cover, +1 save, re-roll failed saves? Some sort of infantry support instead of charge x unit and tie it up. 15-20 points?

-Rhinos
-Rapid deployment
-re-rolling failed saves, t8 or a 5++ (5+++??)
-force field?

-Priamris transport
-Repulsor is too expensive. Remove ability to transport troops and bring the cost down to 250ish (it's a dakka tank, make it a dakka tank)
-Primaris rhino, 150-180 points?, t8, fly, assault cannons, transport 6 primaris and 6 regular marines?

-Redemptor dread
-PoTMS, 5++, Plasma gun 2d3 shots

-Dreads
-Power of the machine spirit
-Ironclad launchers d6 shots per 5 models in charged or charging unit. s3 ap0. Seismic hammer (re-roll failed wound rolls)

-Thunderfire Cannon
-Gunner should be a regular marine or two (techmarine is too expensive with all that equipment you will never use)

-Hunter/Stalker
-no LOS

-Whirlwind
-Castellan +d6 shots for each model in unit after 5
-Vengeance re-roll failed wound rolls? No invuln saves?

-Drop Pod
-2x heavy bolters, 50 points w/ guns

-Land-speeders
-New assault cannons
-PoTMS
-Jink if advance

I don't think this would make marines OP and would mitigate some of the issues I've come across with not having a mobile force that's only real tactic is to clump up around gurlly man and try not to move. I also think storm ravens need a bit of a nerf but I'm not quite sure how to do that (remove access to heavy weapons? Tone down their missile system?)
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle




In My Lab

Terrible Mobility, with bikes, and jump pack units, and deep strikers...

My Nurgle Daemons weep for you. /s

No screens is, admittedly, an issue with pure Marines. You do have access to Infantry Squads from Guard, but I get that "Take this from another army!" isn't good advice. That being said, Scouts aren't BAD at that role.

Tacs are overpriced, true.

You CAN deal with Hordes. Razorbacks, Aggressors, Scouts... All pretty good at that.

Termies could use a minor buff. Nothing huge-but they could stand to be buffed.

Lack of Board control... With Scouts, Raven Guard strategems, and plenty of Deep Strikers?

SQUISHY ARMOR? You have near-universal 3+! How is that SQUISHY?

Assault Marines are pointless CC troops. Vanguard Veterans are NOT.

You have plenty of deep strikes, and while some suck, some are perfectly good. Again, my Nurgle Daemons weep for you.

IG does most things better, true, but that applies to ANYBODY BESIDES IG. They're top dog right now.

You suggest making Assault Cannons 12 shots base? And up their type to Assault? So a Razorback puts out 24 AP-1 shots, without movement penalties? That's insane.

Why does Grav need more range?

Flamers need a universal adjustment, agreed there.

11 Point Tacticals... Maybe. I'd err on the side of 12 to start, and adjust down if needed.

9 Point Scouts... No. That's the same price as a Battle Sister, and they have better toughness, strength, and hugely, DEPLOYMENT OPTIONS.

Intercessors should not get 2 shots at 30" and 4 at 15". No, Intercessors could use a small points drop and that's it.

Assault Marine buff seems okay. The fall back thing is a universal issue that needs addressing, not an Assault Marine thing.

No-Vanguard Vets are pretty good right now.

You want to make all Terminators Cataphractii, give them an extra wound, -1 AP on bolters... I agree, Termies are not the BEST, but they are not NEARLY that bad.
And hell no on making Assault Terminators TOUGHER THAN NURGLE TERMINATORS.

Strenguard are fine.

Reivers could use a buff, yeah.

Chaplain can keep the same buff, but allowing them to Deny the Witch seems okay. Should come with a points increase, though.

Centurions can Deep Strike-they just need a pod. And hell no on 8" move Assault Centurions! That's faster than WULFEN. And they do NOT need an extra attack. Nor 4 wounds. Nor an Invuln.

Deepstrike Denial exists. It's called Scouts.

Predators are fine. Hell no they don't need 2+/5++.

Land Raiders are also fine. They do not need to be tougher than an IMPERIAL KNIGHT TITAN.

Razorbacks are one the best units in the book. They're fine.

Rhinos are fine as well.

The Primaris transport things actually seem reasonable.

Eh... Seems okay on the Redemptor.

Dreads seem okay.

Agreed on the TFC. Edit: But they shouldn't be characters.

Hunter and Stalker are fine.

Whirlwind issues are more a universal issue with hordes. And why on earth would something that was S5 AP4 in earlier editions IGNORE INVULNERABLE SAVES?

Drop Pods need a points decrease, but not THAT much.

Land Speeders don't need POTMS, especially if you make Assault Cannons assault.

Overall, YES THIS WOULD MAKE MARINES OP AS ALL HELL.

I normally don't say this, but it really sounds like you need to learn to play better. Some of the stuff you already have, you just apparently don't use it. Marines are not without issues, but they are not NEARLY bad enough to deserve these buffs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 00:39:56


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







bananathug wrote:

Termies
-2 special weapons per 5 (open up options, grav, new ass-cans, plamsa...)
-Captain uses a powerfist (get rid of that stupid powersword)
-3 wounds, 2+/4++
-Special storm bolters get -1 ap
-Raise cost to 30 ppm
-Assaults should have s5/t6


I'm going to have to disagree on a chunk of this. I've found that the most effective Terminators, everywhere, all the time, across every edition, aren't the ones packing powerfists, they're the ones that have the option to take power swords on everyone, which takes their basic problem (that of being wildly overpriced generalists) and tries to address it, by allowing them to specialize.

I also strongly disagree with S5/T6 on Assault Terminators, simply because you're suggesting an Assault Terminator should be T6, 3W, 2+/4++, for 42pts (claws)/51pts (TH/SS), which makes them bigger/better/scarier than a Custodian. For cheaper. And with Deep Strike. Not to mention you'd be handing the advantage of Cataphractii armour to everyone without taking away the movement penalties Cataphractii are stuck with to compensate.

There are places where you can't really push Terminators' stats because there are things that are bigger and scarier than they are, and that should be bigger and scarier than they are. Right now Paladins, Aggressors, Centurions, and Custodians live inside the space you're proposing bumping Terminators up past; if similar stat ratios were to be preserved a Custodian would have to be T7, 4W, 2+/4++, at which point we have to start asking why a Dreadnaught is so squishy by comparison to everything else.

So no, I don't think this particular set of changes (I've augured in on the Terminator changes because they jumped out at me first and because I've been working with Terminator rules for many editions) is a good idea, not for any reason related to OPness but because they don't make much sense in the wider context of the game and because I don't agree with what seems to be your vision on what Terminators are/do.

Terminators aren't there to be the biggest, the strongest, or the most thumpy. They're the modern answer to the Breacher teams of the pre-Terminator-armour Legions; they're there to be the first through the breach in a siege or boarding action. They're there to shrug off antipersonnel defenses in a confined space while remaining small enough to get into confined spaces and to avoid anti-armour weapons. The issue with their presentation in the game today isn't how big they are, it's how much they cost and their armament.

A Terminator is, roughly, two Tactical Marines stapled together with a slight save buff and Deep Strike. Disregarding the melee weapon for the moment the twin bolter and the two Attacks give him the offensive power of two Tactical Marines, the two Wounds give him the durability of two Tactical Marines against single-damage weapons. Assume, for the moment, that the increased vulnerability to multi-damage weapons compensates for the bonus the save gives (...not really, but this is a pretty rough estimate) and we arrive at a cost of 22-26pts (depending on what costing estimate you're using for Tactical Marines), rather than the 28pts the current Codex charges (including the boltgun).

That doesn't tell the whole story, however. Consider then the issue of Bikes. A Bike in the current Codex is 27pts, has all the offensive advantages of a Terminator (though he has the ability to have a chainsword rather than two Attacks on profile), can come in smaller squads, has T5 (which I would argue is more important than the 3+->2+ bump in most situations), and can go 14" a turn, or Advance and go 20" a turn (which I would argue is a lot more valuable than Deep Strike since it lets you both engage and re-engage, rather than only being able to engage initially and then getting stuck slogging along at 5" a turn).

At which point the 22pt end of the scale is looking a lot more attractive. Give Terminators the options list off a 30k Terminator squad (twin bolter, volkite charger, or combi-weapon in the ranged hand, power sword, axe, mace, fist, chainfist in the melee hand), two upgrade guns per five models, and a broader list of upgrade guns (take the Contemptor's fist grav-gun/plasma gun as an initial estimate), and start them at 20pts naked with a 5++, and I think they'd do a lot better than trying to make them bigger.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Thanks for the responses so far.

t6 on the assult termies is a bit too far but I was thinking of a way to help protect them from massed s3 fire. I'm not sure of a better way to go about this but the comparison to custodes is true and looks like it is way too much.

I agree whole heartedly with the proposed changes to termies offered by Anomander. Much better than mine.

JNA
thanks for the harsh criticism. I needed it.
I'd argue that marine bikes, jump pack units and deep strikers are all non-competitive (based on their appearances in competitive lists) and comparisons to options available in other armies.
Aggressors seem to be the best way to deal with hordes but with a terrible transport, limited mobility and short range they really need some help. If razorbacks have to move they become really point inefficient to deal with hordes (12 shots, 6 hit, 5 wound, 1 save so 4 dead for a 115ish point model doesn't scare anyone) and given the speed of units if they start w/in 24" and LOS something has gone bad for my opponent.

Again, our deepstrikers are bad, the raven guard strat is great but limits your army comp significantly (no rowboat or any of the better characters and reaper spam counters your entire army attribute) and scouts can't be the answer to everything (at 11 points a model)

Just because something is better than an index army doesn't make it good or even competitively viable.

Yeah, assault cannons 12 shots base @ s4, -1 ap. at 15 points. 6 storm bolters gets you 12 shots, 24 at half range, same strength no AP and costs 12 points (no penalty for moving) 2 hurricane bolters gets you 12/24 for 20 I tried to split the difference. I don't see how this is so OP.

Grav needs more range because in order to get w/in 24" you need to move. -1 to hit with a weapon that is only strength 5 doesn't make for a very point efficient weapon. If you didn't have move penalties I think it'd be too powerful out of deepstrike. Move penalties on top of the -1 to hit that many armies have access to makes marines pay a lot of points to hit on a 5+ (41 points for .87 hits is bad) but I like the s5 -3ap profile a lot.

Point taken about battle sisters. If tacs go to 11 though I think scouts need to come down as well.

Intercessors don't need to be cheap. They need to be true scale marines. Their offensive out-put is laughable now so all they do sit around and die once better targets are gone. Maybe up their points to 22 but marines need something that can shoot back at the hordes of dark reapers I'm seeing and a s4 -1 gun seems to be okay. 4 shots at 15" makes them dangerous but their basically 2x marines with a little extra offensive punch to make up for their vulnerability to multi-wound weapons.

Termie changes are crazy. You're right, just not sure how to make them viable without making them OP. I guess better options on vanilla termies would help but I'm not sure how to help assault termies.

Pods are bad IMHO I'd rather have a good deep striking heavy weapons platform (to help hide from alpha strike, god I'm jealous of oblits) The assault ones do need an extra attack to make them viable in CC and 4 wounds + an invuln make them about 80% as tough as a dread (which they are 80% the price of at 65 points)

Preds and razors die too fast to enemy fire. It may be my games against dark reapers/IG/lances/tau commanders...but I consistently lose 3-4 first turn against these armies. Too many armies have too many weapons that excel at taking out t7 3+ models, hell deep striking plasma scions pop them like pinatas. If you haven't seen this then I'm not sure what kind of armies you are playing against. Maybe t9 is too much but their toughness needs a buff because losing 60 wounds of SM tanks in 2 turns isn't a rare thing where I play.

I want the whirlwind to ignore invluns to deal with brimstone horrors honestly. I think it would make for an interesting weapon where invulns just didn't count against it, call 'em psychic shells or something. I'd be open to making it a weapon based strat for 2 cp?

I'll disagree that land speeders don't need PoTMS unless they get to equip assault weapons and there just aren't any good marine assault weapons outside of plasma and Speeders can't equip any of them (give them options to use hurricane bolters maybe?) For a unit that's strength comes from its ability to speed around the battlefield these things just don't fill that role.

I'm not sure about your get gud comment. I'll admit that I am probably not that good and have a lot to learn but it seems like you don't understand how vulnerable SM are to top tier lists (reapers + shining spears, morty + magnus, oblits + zerkers, morters + manticores + scions, genestealers + dakkabugs). I'll admit that several of the ideas are over-reaches (mostly the terminator one but I really want them to be good) but that's why I posted to get knocked about a bit and take a hard look at what I think we need vs. what sane people think.
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

bananathug wrote:
Thanks for the responses so far.

t6 on the assult termies is a bit too far but I was thinking of a way to help protect them from massed s3 fire. I'm not sure of a better way to go about this but the comparison to custodes is true and looks like it is way too much.

I agree whole heartedly with the proposed changes to termies offered by Anomander. Much better than mine.


I always thought the problem with termies (defensively, anyways) could be solved by giving them rerolls on their 2+ and 5++. So massed s3 fire has a much lower rate of taking them down (1/36) and their invuln is useful but not overpowered (still only a 5++). Of course, then i wouldn't give them the 2nd wound.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As far as G-Man goes I'd love to see his rules changed to something like this:

Author of the Codex:
All Codex Compliant SM units (how do I phrase it so that it's only codex SM units?) withing 12" can re-roll 1's to hit and 1's to wound.

If Guilliman is your warlord you can include units of different chapters while still remaining battle forged. (Iron hand dreads and Black Templar terminators in the same detachment would still benefit from their chapter rules and the detachment would count as battle forged)

I think you'd have to reduce his points to the 285-300 point range but I think it would encourage more dynamic SM armies. Actually being able to use the chapters at what they excel at under the "supreme tactical commander" seems like a more fluffy and competitive than trying to clump as many units as you can within 6" of gulliman and try not to move.
   
Made in us
Slippery Scout Biker



The Gates of Hell

I literally spent an Hour today making a similar article in Proposed rules. Thanks a lot dude I put a few od these in mine as well. I think we got nerfed too quick, GW shouldve waited for all codecies to drop.

Make Assault Marines and Bikes Troops if Warlord has a Bike or Jump Pack. Get ObSec.

Grav should be S6 -3 D D2 and roll a D6. On a 4+ the Target's movemement is halved rounding up excluding flyers.

New Intercessor Transport Rhino and Razorback Primaris version same profile but with 2 more wounds and only Onslaught Gatling and Macro Plas turrets. For around 140pts.
Get Intercessors able to have a Hellblaster in the squad.

Whirlwind Launchers need improvement new profiles would help.
Vengence: Roll 2D6 and Pick Highest. Ignore LOS and Cover and The S7 |Ap- 2 | D2 for 150pts.
Castelan: 4D6 Pick Highest Ignore LOS and Cover and drop down to S4 |AP -1|D1. For 120pts

Vindicator is sooooo badddddd
Assualt 2 | AP -3| D D6 and every unit within 3" of a shot from the vindicator takes 2D6 S4 hits 5+'s are -1.
Thats a tank there. Assualt is the key.

Those seem to be able to help us the most.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/31 07:02:26


Raven Guard XIX
Borne from the Shadows


 
   
Made in ca
Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Vancouver, BC

I would take chapter tactics on tanks and be happy, honestly.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in se
Screamin' Stormboy




Sweden

If we're wishlisting, i'd say let us use krak grenades and melta bombs in melee again, and not just one attack per unit, all of them. Maybe limit it so it's not allowed against infantry. This would change for all armies of course.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Ultramarine Devastator






Gitdakka wrote:
If we're wishlisting, i'd say let us use krak grenades and melta bombs in melee again, and not just one attack per unit, all of them. Maybe limit it so it's not allowed against infantry. This would change for all armies of course.


Maybe giving assault marines a rule that lets the entire unit use grenades would make them more attractive lol
   
Made in kr
Crazed Cultist of Khorne





London

Lol, i just love my storm bolters and chainswords on MEQ.
   
 
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