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Hi everyone,
I was just wondering, between a single Tactical Marine and Eldar Dire Avenger, who is more powerful pound-for-pound in terms of fluff?

I don't know a great deal about Space Marines but as far as I can tell they are basically beefed up supersoldiers trained from birth (comparable to the Spartans in Halo). I'm unsure of how strong they are though, as some Marines are shown to be crazy unstoppable tanks, whilst others seem to get wiped out fairly easily.

The Eldar seem pretty flimsy compared to marines in terms of defense. However, they are extremely quick and, from what I can tell, pretty acrobatic (basically WH40k's ninja race). The Avenger Shuriken Catapult also seems comparable to a Bolter.

Who do you guys think would win a one-on-one fight? How many Dire Avengers would it take to bring down a single Marine? How many Marines would it take to kill a Dire Avenger? Reasons for either side welcome and appreciated.

Looking forward to seeing what you guys think

Fluff-wise, they're similar.

A Space Marine would have the benefit of mass, sheer strength, healing capacity within its own body, and rigid discipline with excellent training (better in the HH than currently, but still very well trained). Genetically engineered excellence. Big benefit in armour (sheer size allowing for heavier armour in many cases). They can cope with radioactive environments, survive on minimal food/etc.

An Aspect Warrior fluff-wise would be as good if not better than a normal Space Marine from a skill-perspective. Superb training, hyper-reflexes, faster reactions etc. Weapon-wise the Eldar generally "should" have better weapons though it's rarely shown in-game that way. Weakness would be actual physical frailty, requiring normal healing and food, with no protection in radioactive environments.

In a fluff fight I'd say the Dire Avenger would stand a very good chance of getting more shurikens on target - possibly before the marine even noticed. In a close-combat engagement, a Space Marine would have a big advantage if he got to grips. Fluff-wise a shuriken catapult should be far better than a standard boltgun.

One of the problems that people has when comparing Eldar with Space Marines is that people forgot Space Marines aren't humans so you can't apply the normal logic of "Elves vs humans" in fantasy.

A Space Marine can have centuries of battle experience and training, just like an Eldar Aspect Warrior.
Eldars are much faster than normal humans, thats right, but I don't believe their hyper-reflexes and speed compensates for how big the difference is with a Space Marines in everything else. And we should remember than Space Marines are big, but they are actually must faster than normal humans and Power Armour only improves all of their super-human capabilities.

I'll say that Eldar weaponry is better than Space Marine weaponry tought, but Space Marine armour is better.

As a BL said, when for example in the fluff the Eldars are the psychich race, it doesn't mean they psykers are just the best ones all the way. A superduper space marine librarian could be equally powerfull in mind-bullets than an Eldar. But Eldars as a race have a armonic relation with their psychic nature that Humans just can't even dream to achieve.
Eldars use their psychic affinity to make art, architecture, to make their weapons, armours, ships, etc... their psychic power impregnates all parts of their lifes. Humans don't have that. Psykers are just weapons, too hard to control.

Great points, sounds like Marines have the edge in hand-to-hand combat, but Eldar do better at range.
I completely forgot about the psychic stuff, so that could give Eldar an edge.
That being said, is it possible that the Space Marine armor would cancel out the Eldar's better weapons? Also, would the genetic enhancements of the marine match the natural speed of the Dire Avenger?

I like to think Space Marines, Nobz and Aspect Warriors as a kind of trinity of warriors who all fight in the same ballpark.

The Eldar has incredible speed, which is a massive advantage. Their equipment is superior and typically they are often also flat out superior in skill. However, while their armour is so advanced it is on par with or even superior to that of the Marines despite its light weight, the Eldar themselves are physically less powerful and resilient, so they have to take care to avoid getting locked down.

Space Marines are balanced. They are much faster than humans and orks while also being stronger than most things they fight. They have very good armour and heavy-hitting weapons as well as durable and versatile physical traits.

The Nob is the least porent of the three contestants, I'd argue, due to the disadvantage of lacking speed. Their equipment is also vastly inferior. However, their massive frames can absorb a lot of punishment and their strength is dangerous even for armour-enhanced marines. Even the Eldar must take care to not get hit even once!

In unarmed combat, the Marine wins. The Eldar is unable to hurt the other contestants reliably with only their hands, whereas the Marine's armour gives him an edge against the nob.

With their guns, the potency of the Eldar's equipment and their incredible speed gives them the advantage, I think.

With melee weapons (klaw/power swords) again I think the Eldar wins for much the same reason but all of them have such devastating weapons they don't want to get hit at all.

Well...
Marines with centuries of experience aren't usually still just regular squaddies. Veteran Sergeants at least, and more likely higher up in the hierarchy. The average Tac Squaddie probably has less than 100 years of experience. That is still insanely veteran compared to RL soldiers, but Aspect Warriors probably still get needled about being the FNG at less than a century.

Dante being 1000 years old is a big deal, remember. Marines with multiple centuries under their belts are apt to be Captains. The average Chapter Master is probably in the range of 400-500.

I imagine it would depend on the context. In a pitched battle, the Space Marine would be superior. If we're talking a game of cat and mouse through the underhive or a jungle? I'd probably give it to the Dire Avenger.

If I had to pick just one, probably the Space Marine. The Aspect Warrior would match skill, but not the other differences in a generalist context.

Space Marines have two hearts so that is something to consider.

The real answer is that it depends on who is writing the fluff. Though most of the fluff is bolter-porn where the Eldar don't stand a chance...

Also, it's worth noting that the way the Aspect paths are arranged, the average Aspect warrior would (fluff-wise) likely be far superior to the average Space Marine in their chosen discipline. Space Marines often appear to be good at everything, with occasional characters who excel at various disciplines. I think most Space Marines are probably far more well rounded in combat - equally dangerous in close combat and shooting, depending on equipment. However in a chosen discipline, I think the Aspect warrior would excel --- again, only fluff-wise, it's never been exemplified in the game.

A Striking Scorpion or Howling Banshee would arguably be far better in close combat than your average Space Marine, even the assault marines. In the fluff though the Eldar exhibit a genuine concern when confronted by Space Marines. While they despise average humans - or at least fail to consider them, they do point out in most of the novels that the Astartes are something to be feared.

If you had a game which portrayed "Movie Marines", I think you could extend it to most Aspect warriors as well (giving them even more skill and speed than is portrayed on the tabletop).

I agree with Ashiyara. For me, Tactical Marines, Ork Nobz, Aspect Warriors, Tyranid Warriors/Genestealers, Necron Inmortals, etc... are all nearly in the same "tier" of power, everyone with their own advantages, at least speaking from a fluff point of view.

As has been mentioned earlier, both present enough of a threat to one another that they'd be weary in each others' presence. Where one would excel over the other would really depend on the circumstance.

On the other hand, an Exarch would absolutely ruin your average marine and then some. In the fluff, at least.

On open ground I'd give it to the marine. In dense terrain the aspect warrior would likely be able to use his maneuverability and use cover to mitigate some of the sheer destructive capability of the Marines gun.

Basically I'd say it would come down to whether the aspect warrior could avoid a full clip of the Bolter - I'm not sure how many shots they have in the fluff, but model wise I'd be amazed if it were more than 10, and Shuriken weapons essentially never reload. The second it would take for the marine to reload would be enough time to put shurikens through the joints and throat of his power armor, but if even one bolt detonated even close enough to knock the Eldar off balance the next 2-3 would kill him.

 Fafnir wrote:


On the other hand, an Exarch would absolutely ruin your average marine and then some. In the fluff, at least.

Unless a marine fan is writing them. Then all it takes is a commissar to scare Jain Zar away.

So here's how I look at it from a couple different perspectives.

"Realistic" View:
They're both sufficiently lethal that getting lucky and/or getting the drop on the other guy would give them a reasonable chance of winning. The specifics of the scenario matter a lot too. In a Comorraghn arena where they both have all their gear? I'd probably give it to the marine on durability. In a game of hide & seek with guns? Slight edge to the xenos with the quick reflexes and the gun made for hit & run attacks. Breath holding contest? Marine. Fashion show? Probably eldar, but darn it if the marine isn't going to do his best and flaunt what the Emperor gave him for the glory of his chapter! But yeah. In a vague "fight" situation, it could go otherway based on luck and whether or not some shurikens happen to the right spots on the marine's armor.

Fluffy/Meta View:
Probably the marine. While marines in novels have a tendency to kill twelve daemon princes on their way to the toilet and make it look pretty easy, eldar (even in t heir own novels) tend to go, "Oh snap!" when marines show up. A blue boy with fancy gloves has punched the Avatar to death. Marines had to be talked out of wiping out Alaitoc in one Black Library series. Marines are made of beef jerky, adolescent hormones, and plot armor. Being a super special guy who manages to overcome the odds is just baked into what makes them marines half of the time. So even if whatever amount of logic you feel comfortable applying to the zany antics of the 41st millenium might suggest that a fight would be close or even favor the marine's enemy, the marine will almost always win in a one-on-one fight because he is almost always the protagonist, with all the plot armor and favoritism that entails.

Of course, the marine is likely to struggle almost as much against a single dire avenger as he would against a whole squad or an exarch or a phoenix lord or whatever because the story will need to create tension. So there will likely be a lot of, "Oh man! I sure am bleeding. Gosh that was close. It really could have gone either way, guys, but it looks like I win!"

 Galas wrote:
I agree with Ashiyara. For me, Tactical Marines, Ork Nobz, Aspect Warriors, Tyranid Warriors/Genestealers, Necron Inmortals, etc... are all nearly in the same "tier" of power, everyone with their own advantages, at least speaking from a fluff point of view.

Agree with everything except the Tyranid Warriors, which are definitely a higher tier.

For Aspect Warriors, they're on par with marines. In fact I think it's important that they are roughly equal. They are two sides of the same coin, different styles of elite army.

I voted tactical marine because fluff-wise they each have 6 wounds (at least).

Depends on the fluff you read, really...

I think ADB got it right in the third book of the Night Lords trilogy for how Eldar v Spacemarines turns out.

First claw end up butchering the eldar but the minute a Phoenix Lord turns up they find out what it is like to become the prey of an apex predator. Quite ironic I thought.

I think a Phoenix Lord should be able to destroy any infantry-level space marine. Whether they can or not seems to be down to plot armor a lot of the time though.
As for the Avatar, he SHOULD be crazily powerful, but he gets used as the 'measuring post' in fluff stories a lot (eg: he always gets the s*** kicked out of him to prove how strong the other guy is).

However, I think an Aspect Warrior should be on pretty even footing with a Space Marine, as long as the Marine doesn't get his (often ridiculous) plot armor that these guys seem to receive.

It's a fair fight mostly. Marines are about equal to a dire avenger. On open terrain the marine will win because there is no where for the avenger to hide and use his advantage of agility. A marine would struggle against a dire in a heavily wooded area where the avenger could jump around like a spider monkey. For the exarchs though - you probably would need to bring a captain to match their ability.

Marines have a huge advantage - plot armor

So, I think there are some great points here. Like most "who would win" discussions it's too twisted up in the narrative to answer objectively.

That said, we know a few things. Obviously, the marine is stronger, tougher, and better armored. They both more or less have maxed out training and discipline. The Dire Avenger will be quicker, both in foot speed and reactions, and will likely enjoy better senses.

For me, the question is, how are they fighting? DAs specialize in fire fights, so if this is a combat of range, cover, and maneuver, I think the DA wins more often than not. If it's a brawl, or even a situation where they "hunt" each other, the advantage might tip.

I just think that even a superhuman generalist isn't going to beat out an Eldar Specialist.

Tactical Marine.

By my fury, he knows the name of the Emperor.

That is: Victory.

 RedCommander wrote:
Tactical Marine.

By my fury, he knows the name of the Emperor.

That is: Victory.

And his name is Rupert! For Rupert!

NinjaSpaceElf117 wrote:
I think a Phoenix Lord should be able to destroy any infantry-level space marine. Whether they can or not seems to be down to plot armor a lot of the time though.
As for the Avatar, he SHOULD be crazily powerful, but he gets used as the 'measuring post' in fluff stories a lot (eg: he always gets the s*** kicked out of him to prove how strong the other guy is).

However, I think an Aspect Warrior should be on pretty even footing with a Space Marine, as long as the Marine doesn't get his (often ridiculous) plot armor that these guys seem to receive.

Avatars are the definition of the Worf Effect. They're beaten to show new things are badass but it happens so often Avatars are just made to look bad.

I'll hand it to marine - he is a biomechanical monster constructed for only one purpose, from the beginning and to the end of his life. Aspect Warriors are just regular eldar who serve as such for a time to get hold over that dark part of eldar psyche every one of them has, and then they can remove their War Masks and live normal lives - that is the true purpose of the Path, not actual fighting itself.

The reason why Aspect Warriors can be as effective as space marines is because they are specialists and are led by an Exarch with hundreds to thousands of years of experience, in a symphony of war orchestrated by most gifted psykers in the galaxy and extremely old and experienced generals. So a single AW vs. Marine - I'd give it to Marine, but an AW squad led by an Exarch vs. squad of Marines - a fair fight for both sides.

As for Phoenix Lords, they are immortal gods of eldar race, who existed before marines were even a thing. Fluffwise their power level should be somewhere between characters like Dante and various even more powerful superhumans, although lower than Primarches (especially Chaos ones, those should be on top for a reason).

Sounds like one of those questions:

Superman vs. He-Man: Who is stronger?

The author writing the story ultimately decides who the victor is. And it doesn´t matter how unlikely the outcome of the event would be. I guess everybody on this board remembers the atrocious fluff in which Mortarion is bested in the Realm of Chaos by a single Grey Knight. According to this sad story, anything goes in 40K. You want a grot winning against a Space Marine in close combat? Write it down on a piece of paper and it becomes fluff reality in an instant. It is all fiction so everything is possible.

You also have to consider the source of the fluff. So in an Eldar codex the Aspect Warrior would triumph over the mon-keigh with ease but in a SM codex it is the other way around. It is a marketing decision to sell models.