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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




So what does 50% covered actually mean? For 7th it was the side facing the firer, but in 8th there are no facings when shooting at vehicles. If a firer is in a position where it can see the entire front of a vehicle but not it's sides, top, bottom or back and the vehicles in cover does that count as not seeing 50% of it? Or is it because it can see 100% (or at least more that 50%) of the side that's facing it the vehicle won't get cover?

Cheers

The Rules FAQ say only two things are required for vehicle cover. Be on or within terrain (just needs to be a part of the vehicle not all of it) and be 50% covered by anything from the point of view of the firer
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





ravenerioli wrote:
So what does 50% covered actually mean? For 7th it was the side facing the firer, but in 8th there are no facings when shooting at vehicles. If a firer is in a position where it can see the entire front of a vehicle but not it's sides, top, bottom or back and the vehicles in cover does that count as not seeing 50% of it? Or is it because it can see 100% (or at least more that 50%) of the side that's facing it the vehicle won't get cover?

Cheers

The Rules FAQ say only two things are required for vehicle cover. Be on or within terrain (just needs to be a part of the vehicle not all of it) and be 50% covered by anything from the point of view of the firer
Can you see more than 50% of the model? If so it's not benefiting from cover.

They never define what that 50% actually entails (is it all the visible surfaces, just the surface pointing to the shooting models?) so you need to decide pre-game what it means.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
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--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Wait hold up.

Are you trying to say since my unit can't see the back facing of your vehicle you gain cover.

Ie

Sitting in an open field in a gw forest (minus the trees) and lets say perpendicular to my unit and since my unit can't see the front facing the back facing or the opposite facing and let me guess it's under facing. And depending on the vehicle its top That you are obscured and get cover.

I just want to make sure i am clearly understanding what you are asking to formulate the correct response.

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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Common sense would say that it would have to be 50% of the model you are shooting's visible portion.

Obviously you cant see the back of the model from the viewpoint of the firing model so that isn't even considered.

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Made in us
Repentia Mistress




Tacoma, WA, USA

You get cover if 50% the profile of model is obscured from the firing unit's position. Only count what you could see if there was no obscuring models or terrain (not including the model itself).
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

ravenerioli wrote:
If a firer is in a position where it can see the entire front of a vehicle but not it's sides, top, bottom or back and the vehicles in cover does that count as not seeing 50% of it?

Given that a vehicle has 6 sides and a firing model can never draw LoS to more than three sides that interpretation would make the 50% rule completely redundant.

With no guidance in this edition the usual interpretation is that 50% of the silhouette is obscured.
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

Eihnlazer wrote:Common sense would say that it would have to be 50% of the model you are shooting's visible portion.


This.

alextroy wrote:You get cover if 50% the profile of model is obscured from the firing unit's position. Only count what you could see if there was no obscuring models or terrain (not including the model itself).


Imagine the silhouette of the enemy vehicle the shooting model would see without anything blocking LOS. Now check if 50% of that silhouette is obscured by friendly units, enemy units, terrain, etc. If yes, the vehicle gets cover.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

p5freak wrote:
Eihnlazer wrote:Common sense would say that it would have to be 50% of the model you are shooting's visible portion.


This.

alextroy wrote:You get cover if 50% the profile of model is obscured from the firing unit's position. Only count what you could see if there was no obscuring models or terrain (not including the model itself).


Imagine the silhouette of the enemy vehicle the shooting model would see without anything blocking LOS. Now check if 50% of that silhouette is obscured by friendly units, enemy units, terrain, etc. If yes, the vehicle gets cover.


Agreed. It's simple common sense.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





'Centre of visible mass' comes to mind! Eihnlazer nailed it: 50% of visible mass.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Anacortes

Don’t forget it is 50%, and in terrain. If either of those are not met, there’s no cover .

In a dog eat dog be a cat. 
   
Made in cr
Fresh-Faced New User




Which there is something bothering me here

For non Infantry units, "Vehicles" must be within terrain completely and 50% obscured, I have pieces of terrain that elevates (Units can walk on top and is not considered a ruin as its more of a building piece and you can't get inside doh) and about the size that obscures around 70% of a Dreadknight, so even do the dreadknight will not have cover from shots across the table?? which I see no sense if can't be seen mostly, or if a tank or transport con only be see a very small portion of it, will not get cover. and with chapter approved this was not actually fixed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 20:06:16


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





Denver, Colorado

I had a similar question come up on Saturday: the rules say that, quote,

"If a unit is entirely on or within any terrain feature, add 1 to its models's saving throws....."

What I always thought that meant was that something like a vehicle has to be entirely on or entirely within cover.

But someone was arguing that a vehicle can be partially within cover to gain its benefit - the rule could be interpreted as saying entirely on or [partially] within.

In the end, the target wasn't 50% obscured, so it was a moot point. But, given they are 50% obscured, can vehicles benefit from cover if they are not entirely within cover, or can they be partially within?

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.". Words to live by, especially for ork players waiting for a new codex.  
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

The designers commentary says:

Q: When determining whether a model benefits from cover, does the model’s entire unit need to be fully on or within terrain, or just the model making a particular saving throw?
A: All of the models in a unit need to be at least partially on or within terrain if any of the models are to receive the +1 bonus to their saving throw.

That would suggest a one-model unit only needs to be partially within.

Meanwhile the rulebook FAQ says the opposite:
Q: Can you clarify what the difference is between ‘wholly within’ and ‘within’ for rules purposes?
A: If a rule says it affects units/models that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if the entire unit/model is within. If it just says ‘within’, however, then it applies so long as any part of the unit/model is within.

Of course, ruins give cover to units that are "entirely within" not "wholly within". Are these terms supposed to be interchangeable?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/02 21:24:35


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob





Denver, Colorado

Well, that's consistent, to me. The rule only says that it just has to be "entirely on OR within".

So, I was assuming that the 'entirely' applied to both 'on' and 'within', but that is arguable, I suppose.

If taken literally, the cover rule does allow for units that are simply within. And the FAQ says that 'within' equates to 'partially within'.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.". Words to live by, especially for ork players waiting for a new codex.  
   
Made in gb
Imperial Admiral





Glasgow

The implication to that interpretation is that a multi-model unit could get cover if a single model is partially within and the designer's commentary makes it clear that this is not the case.
   
 
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