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Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




This seems really simple so bear with me. But most Sgts can pick from the Sgt equipment list, and it says you can 2 from the pistols and melee weapon list and 1 from the "gun" list. Does that mean I can gear a Sgt with say a Stormbolter, pistol of some type, AND a melee weapon? Or am I limited to just 2 options? Thanks.

"The Ultramarines are here to save us!"

"Those are the Sons of Orar."

"O R they!" 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





It doesn't help to say "most sergeants", we need an exact squad to be able to answer your question since it can vary between unit types.

If you can give us an exact unit you're looking at we can help you.

I think you're getting a little confused. When it says "Up to two weapons can be chosen from the following list" that doesn't mean you can swap a Bolt Pistol for 2 weapons, it means that at most a sergeant can have two of the items on the list, regardless of what they need to replace (or not replace) to get them.


For example, the Tactical Squad Sergeant can only have a maximum of 2 items from the top of the list and one from the bottom. That means he could:
  • replace his Bolt Pistol and Bolter for two Lightning Claws,
  • but he couldn't replace Bolt Pistol and Bolter for a Combi-Flamer and Storm Bolder, since he is limited to one from the bottom of the list
  • Or, he could swap Bolt Pistol and Bolter for a Combi-Flamer and a Chainsword.


  • So to summarise, you're limited to a maximum of two options since you've only got two weapons to swap, but you can end up with two from the top list, or 1 from the bottom and one from the top, and CANNOT have two from the bottom.

    This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2017/12/22 18:12:27


    Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
    Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
    --- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
       
    Made in us
    Death-Dealing Devastator




     BaconCatBug wrote:
    It doesn't help to say "most sergeants", we need an exact squad to be able to answer your question since it can vary between unit types.

    If you can give us an exact unit you're looking at we can help you.

    I think you're getting a little confused. When it says "Up to two weapons can be chosen from the following list" that doesn't mean you can swap a Bolt Pistol for 2 weapons, it means that at most a sergeant can have two of the items on the list, regardless of what they need to replace (or not replace) to get them.


    For example, the Tactical Squad Sergeant can only have a maximum of 2 items from the top of the list and one from the bottom. That means he could:
  • replace his Bolt Pistol and Bolter for two Lightning Claws,
  • but he couldn't replace Bolt Pistol and Bolter for a Combi-Flamer and Storm Bolder, since he is limited to one from the bottom of the list
  • Or, he could swap Bolt Pistol and Bolter for a Combi-Flamer and a Chainsword.


  • So to summarise, you're limited to a maximum of two options since you've only got two weapons to swap, but you can end up with two from the top list, or 1 from the bottom and one from the top, and CANNOT have two from the bottom.


    Yes, I was referring to say Tactical Sgts and those with similar wording, which as far as I know say some variation on one of two things:

    1) They can replace their bolt pistol OR chainsword for AN item from the Sgts equipment list
    2) They can replace bolt pistol AND chainsword for ITEMS from the Sgt list.

    I was referring to the option to replace both bolt pistol AND chainsword, and was unclear on the wording of selecting multiple items from the Sgt equipment list. Cheers, with apolotgies if I was unclear before.

    "The Ultramarines are here to save us!"

    "Those are the Sons of Orar."

    "O R they!" 
       
    Made in us
    Death-Dealing Devastator




     BaconCatBug wrote:
    So to summarise, you're limited to a maximum of two options since you've only got two weapons to swap, but you can end up with two from the top list, or 1 from the bottom and one from the top, and CANNOT have two from the bottom.


    Where does it say that you are limited to two options because you only have 2 options to swap? It merely says that the Sgt can swap his pistol and boltgun for items from the list. It is implied maybe, but except for what it says under the two categories of Sgt weapons there is no explicit limit of 2 in total stated.

    "The Ultramarines are here to save us!"

    "Those are the Sons of Orar."

    "O R they!" 
       
    Made in gb
    Waaagh! Ork Warboss





    Gwarok wrote:
     BaconCatBug wrote:
    So to summarise, you're limited to a maximum of two options since you've only got two weapons to swap, but you can end up with two from the top list, or 1 from the bottom and one from the top, and CANNOT have two from the bottom.


    Where does it say that you are limited to two options because you only have 2 options to swap? It merely says that the Sgt can swap his pistol and boltgun for items from the list. It is implied maybe, but except for what it says under the two categories of Sgt weapons there is no explicit limit of 2 in total stated.
    You can't "swap" nothing for something.

    Also from Stepping into a New Edition FAQ:
    Q: Can a model take the same wargear option more than once? For example, can a Space Marine Terminator replace his storm bolter with a cyclone missile launcher and another storm bolter, and then replace its ‘new’ storm bolter with a heavy flamer?
    A: No.

    So you can't end up with a total of 3 weapons because you only have 2 to begin with to swap. If it said "take", then you could take 3, but it says "swap", so you can't.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/23 22:30:03


    Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
    Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
    --- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
       
    Made in nz
    Regular Dakkanaut




    so a sgt could technically get both a bolter and storm bolter?

    If it could well that is a lot of firepower since he can use both Rapid fire 1 and 2 at half range would be pretty sweet
       
    Made in us
    Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






    No idea what BCB is on about.

    You swap bp and bolter for access to the Sgt equipment list: that list allows for up to 2 pistol&melee weapon options and up to 1 rifle option.

    There is no 1-for-1 swap involved. You swap both guns for access. When you have access an option on each sub-list are the bolt pistol and boltgun.

    So, for example, you could trade in your pistol and boltgun for a bolt pistol, boltgun, and chainsword.

    Or you could take a pair of lightning claws and a combi-grav.

    What you cannot take is a pair of claws and a plasma pistol.

    This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
    Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



     
       
    Made in gb
    Waaagh! Ork Warboss





     Kommissar Kel wrote:
    There is no 1-for-1 swap involved. You swap both guns for access. When you have access an option on each sub-list are the bolt pistol and boltgun.
    I categorically disagree. However the term "replace" is vague enough that it could be interpreted that way. Looks like one for the FAQ list (whenever they get around to doing it).

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/23 22:57:05


    Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
    Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
    --- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
       
    Made in gb
    Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





    Cardiff

     Kommissar Kel wrote:
    No idea what BCB is on about.

    You swap bp and bolter for access to the Sgt equipment list: that list allows for up to 2 pistol&melee weapon options and up to 1 rifle option.

    There is no 1-for-1 swap involved. You swap both guns for access. When you have access an option on each sub-list are the bolt pistol and boltgun.

    So, for example, you could trade in your pistol and boltgun for a bolt pistol, boltgun, and chainsword.

    Or you could take a pair of lightning claws and a combi-grav.

    What you cannot take is a pair of claws and a plasma pistol.


    I disagree, though largely through decades of precedent and a different parsing of the rules in question. The intent is to allow two weapons, but they seem to have left a linguistic gap if someone wanted to try and claim that. It really is intended to be two weapons total, though. One list allows up to two weapons and one only one, to a maximum of two chosen across both lists. S'how it's always been for Sergeants.

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/23 23:31:06


     Stormonu wrote:
    For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
     
       
    Made in us
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    But RAW, there are no limitations on how many items from the sgt equipment list can be taken as long as you don't take anything twice.

    Where does in the rulebook does it say you can only take two weapons?
       
    Made in de
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     skchsan wrote:
    But RAW, there are no limitations on how many items from the sgt equipment list can be taken as long as you don't take anything twice.

    Where does in the rulebook does it say you can only take two weapons?


    P.131 Codex: Space Marines wrote:If models in a unit have the option to exchange one or more of their weapons for an item from one of the Space Marines wargear lists, the options they can choose from are detailed in the appropriate lists below.


    So you exchange always one or more items for one pick on the table.

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     Zeshi wrote:
     skchsan wrote:
    But RAW, there are no limitations on how many items from the sgt equipment list can be taken as long as you don't take anything twice.

    Where does in the rulebook does it say you can only take two weapons?


    P.131 Codex: Space Marines wrote:If models in a unit have the option to exchange one or more of their weapons for an item from one of the Space Marines wargear lists, the options they can choose from are detailed in the appropriate lists below.


    So you exchange always one or more items for one pick on the table.


    I do agree with this, though it won't stop someone from arguing that because the sub-headers for each of the Sergeant Equipment lists makes reference to a number allowed, that it means they can swap 1-for-2 from the top table, and 1-for-1 on the bottom table. I don't believe that's the intent, but I can see how it'd be argued.

    (Edit: Accidentally quoted myself)

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/26 22:12:24


     
       
    Made in de
    Drop Trooper with Demo Charge






    I can see why someone could argue with that but RAW is clear imo.

    If Khorne needs blood, will drown him in his own blood!
    If Slaanesh wants pleasure, then we´ll give him DEATH, the greatest pleasure known to man!
    If Tzeentch asks for forbidden knowledge, then we will enlighten him with fear of The God Machine!
    If Nurgle wants us to embrace rebirth, then to hell with that, the Guard embrace Death, we live to DIE! 
       
    Made in us
    Death-Dealing Devastator




     BaconCatBug wrote:
    So to summarise, you're limited to a maximum of two options since you've only got two weapons to swap, but you can end up with two from the top list, or 1 from the bottom and one from the top, and CANNOT have two from the bottom.


    The part I put in italics is the part I have an issue with. It doesn't say that you are limited to swapping 2 items for 2 items. When you swap out either a bolt pistol OR a chainsword for instance, it states explicitly that you can take one item from the Sgt list in exchange, a 1 for 1 swap. It does not state such a limit when swapping both a bolt pistol and a chainsword, it simply says you can take items, plural. Why would they be explicit about the 1 for 1 swap in one instance, and not in the other? The only place I can find that states a limit explicitly in the case of being able to take items is on the Sgt list itself saying you can take 2 from the pistols and melee weapons and one from the other list. If there is a place that states explicitly you are limited to only 2 items because you give up two items I can't find it, and since the single item swap does state such a limit, the lack of such a statement on swapping both out would indicate you can take 3 items in total as long as you follow the rules stated on the Sgt Equipment list.

    "The Ultramarines are here to save us!"

    "Those are the Sons of Orar."

    "O R they!" 
       
    Made in gb
    Sniveling Snotling



    UK

    For the devastator sergeant, it says that he may swap his boltgun for "items" (plural) from the sergeant equipment list. Note that he is only swapping his boltgun, and need not also swap his bolt pistol. This may be a mistake, but RAW clearly means that a 1 for 2 swap is allowed in this case, or even 1 for 3. That in turn suggests that a 2 for 3 swap is also permitted for e.g. a tactical sergeant.

    I know that only 2 weapons have been allowed historically, but it may be intentional to now allow 3 for consistency with the Intercessor sergeant, who can have 3.

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/30 18:47:40


     
       
     
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