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Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

I was hoping to hear peoples oppinion on what elite units that work in this edition.

Currently what seems to be good in this edition are smalle units. Imperial gaurdsmen, your humble Ork boy, termagaunts. Even glass cannon gaunts like the devil gaunt is good. Tanks also seems good. High thoughness, many wounds wounds and a good save on a dakka platform.

Units that do not seem to be good this edition are Space Marines models in general. But the more exlusive models like terminators or primaris are not doing so well. Is this a good estimate?

There is one 'elite unit' that do see some play, the humble tyranid warrior. People are reporting descent or good results with them. The tyranid warrior is a generalist units, but it is hard pressed from specialist units within it's own codex: 4 point gaunts for survivabilaty, 8 point devilgaunts on the dakka front and 12 point genestealers on the melee side. The warior is usually around 27 points. 3 wounds, S4, T4, 4+ to hit, with a 24" heavy bolter, 4 attack AP 2 3+ melee attacks. They provide synapse (and will this never fail morale.)

The Tyranid warriors are not cheap, they are no auto include, but they are descent and playable. When I have compared the warrior with primaris marines, regular marines or long fangs with hevay bolters the wariors come out much better then the comparison. I do not think the warriors are priced to cheap comparing them with the rest of the units in the codex.

Are marines, primaries and similar units priced to high? If so, what price should they be? Would making devestators/long fangs cheaper make them to good, making a caskading effect increasing the cost of the weapons and thus making tanks more expsnesive again?

I am just looking to the future of point adjustements.

Edit: I can see from the comments that peoples missing knowledge of the codexes and from my own use of an ambigius language that people are missunderstanding me. When I say 'Elite unit' I am talking about a high point infantery model. This model often has superior stats, a very good rule, or more wounds then a regular model. I count both tyranid warriors and space marine tactical units here even though they are troop choises. I do not count dreadnoughts here, even though they are elites,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/29 23:19:37


I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

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Been Around the Block




I'm pretty ok with DG blight spawn's. Basically flamer heroes that can fry tanks.
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut




When 8th edition was launched multi-wound infantry and bikes were nearly universally overcosted whereas the humble 5+ save was (and still is) undercosted. GW is slowly fixing this by readjusting point values.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I play Deathwing, so lot's of terminators and I can tell you terminators are priced too high. Then again, this is not news, terminators haven't been competitive or priced correctly for at least 4 edition now so, seems unlikely that will change...

I also play blood angels, and Sanguinary guard, Vanguard vets, and Death company are both very good
   
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Northridge, CA

The Chaos Helbrute is an amazing Elite choice. It can be kitted out to fill any role you want, from a melee machine that has the potential to punch out a Knight (World Eaters Helbrute with Fist + Scourge = 6 attacks at 3 damage each + 3 attacks at 2 damage each) to a long range fire base (tons of ranged options). Great stats that don't degrade as well.
   
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!!Goffik Rocker!!






For orks:
Kommandoes are the only competitive elite choice right now. Cause they're basically boyz that can infiltrate for an appropriate point fee. They also get 2 free burnas because of reasons.

Oh, i also forgot painboyz and Grotsnik. They're also elite and are pretty good in certain lists.

Nobz would have been amazing if we had decent transports. Same problem with tankbustas.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 00:55:32


 
   
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Georgia

 koooaei wrote:
For orks kommandoes are the only competitive choice right now. Cause they're basically boy that can infiltrate for an appropriate point fee. They also get 2 free burnas because of reasons.

Oh, i also forgot painboyz and Grotsnik. They're also elite and are pretty good in certain lists.

Nobz would have been amazing if we had decent transports.


I'm gonna include tankbustas. They're a hair overpriced, but are one of our best shooty units and even can buy ablative wounds. I actually disagree about painboyz because I think they're a waste on boyz and they get too expensive when coupled with elite choices that could actually use a painboy. If our other elite choices get stronger, painboyz will get much better in turn.

"The undead ogre believes the sack of pies is your parrot, and proceeds to eat them. The pies explode, and so does his head. The way is clear." - Me, DMing what was supposed to be a serious Pathfinder campaign.

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Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

I run chaos Terminators (you know, those terminators that don't have moral immunity but are more expensive) and I love them! All equipped with plasma + power fists, with a lord and sorcerer behind them they pull A LOT of weight; they can easily cripple/destroy two units the turn they come down and then basically draw all of your opponants fire power the next turn.

TL : DR - Loyalists are whiny as all hell.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 00:35:43


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
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 mrhappyface wrote:
I run chaos Terminators (you know, those terminators that don't have moral immunity but are more expensive) and I love them! All equipped with plasma + power fists, with a lord and sorcerer behind them they pull A LOT of weight; they can easily cripple/destroy two units the turn they come down and then basically draw all of your opponants fire power the next turn.

TL : DR - Loyalists are whiny as all hell.

I mean, loyalist termies don't have access to Endless Cacophony, Warptime, or Prescience.
   
Made in fi
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Vitali Advenil wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
For orks kommandoes are the only competitive choice right now. Cause they're basically boy that can infiltrate for an appropriate point fee. They also get 2 free burnas because of reasons.

Oh, i also forgot painboyz and Grotsnik. They're also elite and are pretty good in certain lists.

Nobz would have been amazing if we had decent transports.


I'm gonna include tankbustas. They're a hair overpriced, but are one of our best shooty units and even can buy ablative wounds. I actually disagree about painboyz because I think they're a waste on boyz and they get too expensive when coupled with elite choices that could actually use a painboy. If our other elite choices get stronger, painboyz will get much better in turn.


I've run tankbustas and they have identical problems to nobz. No transports good and cheap enough to justify the resulting pts/damage. Well, at least not in the codex. I hear trakks are pretty good.

Painboyz, on the other hand, synrgise well with boyz, wierdboyz and Ghaz. Our best index units. Tankbustas need an appropriately pruced open-topped transport. And the index can't boast to have any.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 01:03:06


 
   
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Furious Fire Dragon





Eldar Wraithguard, always a good choice tough and always pack a punch to be reckoned.
   
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Mighty Brass Scorpion of Khorne





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

 Arachnofiend wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
I run chaos Terminators (you know, those terminators that don't have moral immunity but are more expensive) and I love them! All equipped with plasma + power fists, with a lord and sorcerer behind them they pull A LOT of weight; they can easily cripple/destroy two units the turn they come down and then basically draw all of your opponants fire power the next turn.

TL : DR - Loyalists are whiny as all hell.

I mean, loyalist termies don't have access to Endless Cacophony, Warptime, or Prescience.

And Loyalists Termies are cheaper, have ways to basically ignore moral, have the option of 3++ invul saves and other equipment Chaos doesn't have.

Though I will say warptime does make up for most of that even if you do have to spend another 100 odd points to get it and it may not even go off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 01:03:25


Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
"It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so f***ing what." - Stephen Fry
 
   
Made in us
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Tampa, Florida

Imperial Guard Platoon Commanders
Imperial Guard Veterans
Sister's of Battle Priest
Sister's of Battle Dialogus
Sister's of Battle Imagifier
Dreadnoughts
Grey Knights Paladin's
Dark Angel Company Champion (best on the list)

These are all of the Elite units I've tried in 8th that I felt were worth the points.
   
Made in es
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets




Vigo. Spain.

Deathwing Knights are probably the best elite-mele unit in the game. Ad an Deathwing Ancient and a Librarian to the mix for Righteous Repugnance and they are basically the best elite-duelists out there. They can melt anything they touch.
And they are very tought both in meele with the -1 to wound stratagem and in shooting with 3++.

And I agree. Company Champions with the Blade of Caliban are BEASTS for their cost. A glass cannon, buth oh boy. And normally people will ignore them, focusing on more high priority target... and then its when the hurt comes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/30 03:08:10


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

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Krieg! What a hole...

Scions of any kind are pretty great

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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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For CSM, I think Noise Marines are pretty awesome! Give them Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters and shred opposing chaff units like Conscripts and Cultists. Or even kit them out for melee with an Icon of Excess and watch them get stupid numbers of extra attacks if they are facing an Imperial opponent. And speaking of melee, Khorne Berzerkers are pretty solid. Most players say they are totally amazeballs, but I've had mixed results with mine. Occasionally they get some good work done, but most of the time they kill something weak and then die, or they fail to do very many wounds to something bigger and more worthy of their attention. Some of the latter might be just bad dice luck (and a couple of my opponents making way more saves than they statistically should).

One elite unit I think we'll have to watch once the Daemons codex drops will be Possessed. Since they are Daemons they can benefit from a Herald nearby, and some of the locus abilities could be very nice on them.

My armies (re-counted and updated on 6/7/18, including modeled wargear options):
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 mrhappyface wrote:
 Arachnofiend wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
I run chaos Terminators (you know, those terminators that don't have moral immunity but are more expensive) and I love them! All equipped with plasma + power fists, with a lord and sorcerer behind them they pull A LOT of weight; they can easily cripple/destroy two units the turn they come down and then basically draw all of your opponants fire power the next turn.

TL : DR - Loyalists are whiny as all hell.

I mean, loyalist termies don't have access to Endless Cacophony, Warptime, or Prescience.

And Loyalists Termies are cheaper, have ways to basically ignore moral, have the option of 3++ invul saves and other equipment Chaos doesn't have.

Though I will say warptime does make up for most of that even if you do have to spend another 100 odd points to get it and it may not even go off.

You're getting them at 5 man squads. Who cares about morale?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in no
Powerful Ushbati





Bergen

IandI wrote:
Imperial Guard Platoon Commanders
Imperial Guard Veterans
Sister's of Battle Priest
Sister's of Battle Dialogus
Sister's of Battle Imagifier
Dreadnoughts
Grey Knights Paladin's
Dark Angel Company Champion (best on the list)

These are all of the Elite units I've tried in 8th that I felt were worth the points.


Palladins are good? I thought they where the poster child for point sink?

Lots of shoking things in this thread (for me at least.)

I am a dyslectic, so bear with me.

Dyslectics in a text based environment? Dakka is aware of you and sympathises with any troubles you have: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/505863.page

Kronos biovore box fresh sporemines. Denying psykick powers since 2017.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Warriors are good compared to some stuff, but they really need to be 4 wounds apiece. Biovores have 4 wounds, and the warrior only has 3? makes no sense.

Everything went up in wounds this edition and everything got more killy, except for the warriors. Make em 4 wounds and raise their point cost by 1 and they will be useable for me at least.

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Custodes are the 'gold standard' for elite infantry and are super effective in terms of durability and firepower for the points you pay per model. They lack mobility or efficient delivery which is why you dont see them much.
   
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 Eihnlazer wrote:
Warriors are good compared to some stuff, but they really need to be 4 wounds apiece. Biovores have 4 wounds, and the warrior only has 3? makes no sense.

Everything went up in wounds this edition and everything got more killy, except for the warriors. Make em 4 wounds and raise their point cost by 1 and they will be useable for me at least.


Biovores don't come at 20 points, or 27 with optimal equipment.
3 Wounds is the golden spot, makes it a bad target for almost everything.
   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

Due to the highly offensive nature of 8th edition and the lack of horde control tools or mechanics, elite infantry usually find themselves in an awkward middle ground where they just end up being too expensive for what they do while not providing the volume of firepower needed to keep up with the meta and not having the survivability to last against any concerted effort to dispose of them.

There are some exceptions (see: Tempestus Scions, Dark Reapers), but they tend to rely heavily on frontloading huge amounts of undercosted firepower onto otherwise inexpensive frames.

Simply put, there's nothing that can really hold much of a candle against raw numbers in this edition, and elite infantry got the absolute worst of it the offensive shifts in 8th, where they have a much harder time staying on the board long enough to make their value.
   
Made in it
Drifting Cronos Hungry for Souls




Italy

About my armies:

Orks: Kommandos are probably the best choice since they're deepstriking boyz. Painboyz are also quite effective the new points cost, and Grotsnik is basically a better dok. Tankbustas are a good unit but penalized by the necessity of taking transports, which are utterly expensive. For the same reason nobz and meganobz don't shine. The banner nob is decent, IMHO a bit overrated. I play all those units quite regularly.

Drukhari: Incubi are a great unit, probably the best infantry models in the index. I use grotesques very often even if they're not extremely competitive but they aren't garbage. Trueborn, especially with blasters, are solid and show up in my games quite regularly.

Space Wolves: Wulfen are my favorite unit, I always include them, one or two units of five dudes. Wolf guard terminators are another unit that I love and typically they're also in. I like the wolf guard bikers, IMHO they compete with razorbacks as ranged anti infantry but still worthy. I sometimes bring footslogging wolf guard all with stormbolters or all with combi plasmas in a transport, not extremely competetive but fun to play. Lukas the Trickster was in my games in a few occasions, IMHO he's too overcosted and now that grey hunters have the same price than blood claws he will probably go on vacation for a while.

These are the only elites that I play. I'd love to include burnaboyz in my ork army but they're absolutely lackluster, useless I can say. Meks don't have a real usage as well. I also don't bother with bloodbrides, I don't think they're really better than wyches but they're cost is quite higher. Other elites are represented by models which I don't own.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/31 10:32:39


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Hamburg

 Lord Perversor wrote:
Eldar Wraithguard, always a good choice tough and always pack a punch to be reckoned.

Seconded. Either with wraithcannons and guided vs. tanks/monsters, or with D-scythes against infantry.
Especially with D-scythes the enemy will think twice if he/she should charge them.

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bobafett012 wrote:
I play Deathwing, so lot's of terminators and I can tell you terminators are priced too high. Then again, this is not news, terminators haven't been competitive or priced correctly for at least 4 edition now so, seems unlikely that will change...

I also play blood angels, and Sanguinary guard, Vanguard vets, and Death company are both very good


The issue is terminators likely are appropriately priced, they just come stock with too much gear. A base terminator with nothing costs 26 points, this is fair for 2 wounds with a 2+ and 5++. Marines cost 13 points and are ~1/4th as durable and have half the attack. The issue is that you are required to take 14 points of wargear on top of that cost at a minimum, and that they don't have options for smaller units and different wargear (combi-weapons, multiple heavy weapons in smaller squads, power weapons. The other issues they have is speed and cost of delivery (other than teleport)


As for Elite units that work well. After Chapter approved a lot of the primaris stuff is actually pretty good. Inceptors in both varieties are usable, Bolter Aggressors can be very good, Helblasters have always been good. Their issue much like with terminators is how do you get them there.

The other issue with elite units in general in this edition is that you need to invest points in protecting them from dying turn 1.
   
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 Fafnir wrote:
Due to the highly offensive nature of 8th edition and the lack of horde control tools or mechanics, elite infantry usually find themselves in an awkward middle ground where they just end up being too expensive for what they do while not providing the volume of firepower needed to keep up with the meta and not having the survivability to last against any concerted effort to dispose of them.

There are some exceptions (see: Tempestus Scions, Dark Reapers), but they tend to rely heavily on frontloading huge amounts of undercosted firepower onto otherwise inexpensive frames.

Simply put, there's nothing that can really hold much of a candle against raw numbers in this edition, and elite infantry got the absolute worst of it the offensive shifts in 8th, where they have a much harder time staying on the board long enough to make their value.



This is spot on analysis. Elite troops are at such a disadvantage in 8th edition. I think to compensate Elite units need to have more strategems to specifically help them out. Not universal strategems that cheap units can use. Strategems specific to those elite units in order to boost they potential on the tabletop. Terminators should have a strategems to shoot twice, Vanguard vets get a free move, Centurions increase their damage output, etc... stuff like that which can elevate elite units to a much higher status for one turn. This would go a long way towards correcting the imbalance they are feeling in 8th edition.
   
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 Niiai wrote:
IandI wrote:
Imperial Guard Platoon Commanders
Imperial Guard Veterans
Sister's of Battle Priest
Sister's of Battle Dialogus
Sister's of Battle Imagifier
Dreadnoughts
Grey Knights Paladin's
Dark Angel Company Champion (best on the list)

These are all of the Elite units I've tried in 8th that I felt were worth the points.


Palladins are good? I thought they where the poster child for point sink?

Lots of shoking things in this thread (for me at least.)


Grey Knight Codex shakes down like this:

1. Grand Master Dreadknights.

2. Strike Squad/Interceptors.

3. Paladins.

4. Garbage (as far as competitive meta is concerned).
   
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Tied and gagged in the back of your car

DarthDiggler wrote:
 Fafnir wrote:
Due to the highly offensive nature of 8th edition and the lack of horde control tools or mechanics, elite infantry usually find themselves in an awkward middle ground where they just end up being too expensive for what they do while not providing the volume of firepower needed to keep up with the meta and not having the survivability to last against any concerted effort to dispose of them.

There are some exceptions (see: Tempestus Scions, Dark Reapers), but they tend to rely heavily on frontloading huge amounts of undercosted firepower onto otherwise inexpensive frames.

Simply put, there's nothing that can really hold much of a candle against raw numbers in this edition, and elite infantry got the absolute worst of it the offensive shifts in 8th, where they have a much harder time staying on the board long enough to make their value.



This is spot on analysis. Elite troops are at such a disadvantage in 8th edition. I think to compensate Elite units need to have more strategems to specifically help them out. Not universal strategems that cheap units can use. Strategems specific to those elite units in order to boost they potential on the tabletop. Terminators should have a strategems to shoot twice, Vanguard vets get a free move, Centurions increase their damage output, etc... stuff like that which can elevate elite units to a much higher status for one turn. This would go a long way towards correcting the imbalance they are feeling in 8th edition.


They just need to introduce some seriously good horde control, because right now, there's nothing that actually scales well with the size of enemy units (flamers are more efficient at killing a single Terminator than they are at killing a freaking horde of 30 boyz or guardsmen?), and Morale is a complete and utter joke.
It would also help if they dialled down the pace of the game to allow the focus to move beyond ending games by the second turn, so units that aren't part of an alpha strike actually get a chance to do something. GW seemed to really miss the boat on this one, conflating 'fast playing' by being a game that ends as soon as possible, rather than a game with an easily playable and understandable system that focused on tactical depth, rather than rules complexity. There's a reason why any unit worth playing either has the ability to ruin things from across the table or has access to (or serves as) a delivery system to let them get close enough to ruin things from across the table. Unless it's a horde that has the simple mass of numbers to ignore most damage, no unit is worth its points unless it can make them (and then some) up in the first turn.

Age of Sigmar is much better in this regard (and in morale as well, since blanket immunities are much harder to obtain usually), because it relies much less on table-length artillery or turn 1 charge shenanigans, which encourages plays built around good movement and setups instead.

It's pretty sad when I can go to a local tournament and predict where people will end up placing based on their raw model count.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/12/31 18:15:05


 
   
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Genestealers are quite useful, and are elite in Cult armies. Some of the Death Guard Elite Characters are quite useful too, Blightspawn in particular. Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels are both very solid and see the table a lot.

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Been Around the Block





Custodes can be useful, but are less powerful than in 7th

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