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Made in se
Waaagh! Warbiker




Sweden

I find it kinda odd that two 5-man squads are usually immune to morale, while one 10-man squad is more vulnerable.
How about a morale rule where casualties on friendly units forces some kind of test on others nearby.

For example a 5 man marine unit gets wiped out, the other one nearby now have to take a test (possibly at -5, but maybe less?)

While this is to harsh now since a loss of morale test currently leads to models dying of heart attacks, it could interesting if this test for nearby casualties instead lead to the affected unit being forced to move away or get pinned down.

It could even be integrated with the current morale rules aswell, to make the new rule an added layer of morale effects. You check at end of round if units take morale losses as usual. but in all phases o the game, if a unit has friendly units wiped out within 6" it has to fall back towards table edge or get pinned (can't move, gets worse at shoting with possibly -1). All units recover form pinned at the end of owning players turn. This would give some strength in numbers for bigger units instead of MSU and would add a weakness to bubble armies.

What do you guys think? Is it a good idea?
-If not, why not?
-If yes, how could it be improved upon?

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Except it isn't? A 5 man squad is more easily totally wiped out than a 10 man squad, which is why morale exists to counteract that advantage.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; and Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in se
Waaagh! Warbiker




Sweden

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Except it isn't? A 5 man squad is more easily totally wiped out than a 10 man squad, which is why morale exists to counteract that advantage.


Then we view the purpose of morale differently. Before 8th smaller units were more likely to take morale tests since you had to cause 25% casualties, which is easier to do on small units. Morale has been a part of the game since the beginning, and I view it as a way to disable enemy units other than killing them.

It's only now in 8th that morale only cause extra wounds, but the intendeed purpose is still the same in my eyes.

I just think the current morale rules are a little lack luster, and this was my rough idea of how to bring them to life again.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Two ten man units are exactly as easy to wipe out as four five man units. They might even be harder, given you'll often waste shots overkilling small units.
All of those small units also have a free squad leader [In many cases] for additional advantage.

The only advantage of a large unit is ablative wounds to protect a heavy weapon, and if I had two per squad, I'm still not convined I'd be better off with two in a ten man or 1 in each five man, due to the effects of moral.
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress




Tacoma, WA, USA

That is just not true.

If you kill 8 models out of a 10 model unit in one turn, the other two are nearly guaranteed to die to Morale.

If you kill 4 models each from two 5 model units, each leadership 7 unit has a 50% chance of losing no other models. That is a 25% chance of losing 0 additional models.

So now we see it is easier to destroy a 10 model unit than two 5 model units.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




He does have a point.

MSU might be easier to kill, but their advantage is that you could flood the field with them.

Imagine this scenario:

1x 5 Man unit

1x 10 Man unit

In this scenario obviously the 10 man unit has better suitability initially from an enemy attack

But... if we scale this up

4x 5 man unit

2x 10 Man unit

You start to see that the advantage tilts towards the small units, because you just cant spread your firepower effectively across 4 units rather than 2

Scale up again

6 x 5 Man unit

3x 10 Man unit

Now we see that in terms of suitability the small units have the benefit of unit numbers, at this point firepower will be too spread out towards the 6 man units while concentrating fire on the 3 man units will be more effective

This is one of the inherent traits of the MSU. It forces your opponent to spread out their firepower rather than concentrate it. Now imagine if all those squads had a heavy weapon or a weapon that could do some damage, which one would be harder to fight?
   
Made in se
Waaagh! Warbiker




Sweden

mchammadad wrote:
He does have a point.

MSU might be easier to kill, but their advantage is that you could flood the field with them.

Imagine this scenario:

1x 5 Man unit

1x 10 Man unit

In this scenario obviously the 10 man unit has better suitability initially from an enemy attack

But... if we scale this up

4x 5 man unit

2x 10 Man unit

You start to see that the advantage tilts towards the small units, because you just cant spread your firepower effectively across 4 units rather than 2

Scale up again

6 x 5 Man unit

3x 10 Man unit

Now we see that in terms of suitability the small units have the benefit of unit numbers, at this point firepower will be too spread out towards the 6 man units while concentrating fire on the 3 man units will be more effective

This is one of the inherent traits of the MSU. It forces your opponent to spread out their firepower rather than concentrate it. Now imagine if all those squads had a heavy weapon or a weapon that could do some damage, which one would be harder to fight?


My point exactly! With the same models in different squad sizes, morale has less effect for MSU's. For 50 marines arranged in 10- or 5-man squads, one list takes alot more morale losses just because of organization. There is no comfort in numbers. Why must two 5-man squads have to be so much better?

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
 
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