Switch Theme:

Baneblades and Storm trooper doctrine  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Had this question come up.
A Baneblade or its variants is part of a supreme command detachment and you give it the stormtrooper doctrine.

Any reason this is not allowed? The idea of it firing its cannons and weapons for more shots (at half range) is kinda scary.

3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in ua
Fresh-Faced New User





Can`t give tempestus doctrine to unit without tempestus keyword.
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





I can't seem to find where it says that. Do you a point of reference i can look at? Page number in the codex

3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Right behind you.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
I can't seem to find where it says that. Do you a point of reference i can look at? Page number in the codex

You've not looked hard enough then.
p84.

Militarum Tempestus isn't able to replace <Regiment>

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/01 17:02:51


 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

Page 84 tells you you cannot choose to give a unit MILITARUM TEMPESTUS instead of its <REGIMENT> tag

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ua
Fresh-Faced New User





There`s line of thinking where you make your own regiment and pick Storm Troopers doctrine for it, but I would`t use that if I where you.
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Thank you gents. (Or gals or both)

3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in gb
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard




Nottingham

You're not replacing <Regiment> with <Militarum Tempestus>. You're just using the Storm Troopers Doctrine (NOT Militarum Tempestus) as treating it like any other custom Regiment using an existing Doctrine. You don't get access to Relics, Warlord Traits and Stratagems exclusive to the Militarum Tempestus, but you CAN use the main doctrine on a custom regiment.

Note that you still can't have Scions in this detachment, because they still have <Militarum Tempestus> as their keyword.

So, in your case OP, if your Baneblade is part of the custom <Generian> Regiment, you can choose which Doctrine you can follow. It doesn't matter if it's Cadian, Catachan, Vostroyan or Militarum, because GW says you get to choose if it's a custom regiment.

However, as said above, I don't think that Doctrine is that good on Baneblade-class tanks, but it's all your choice!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/01 17:18:04


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
DR:90S++G++MB+IPw40k07-D++A++/sWD366R++T(F)DM+ 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





That's correct, you can make the Regiment BOB'S PONY BRIGADE and pick the Storm Troopers doctrine instead.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/02 02:41:06


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





You actually CAN take Scions in such a detachment as part of the Auxilla and Advisors bit on the same page. They (and Ogryns, Bullgryns, Ratlings, Commissars, etc) can be included in a <REGIMENT> detachment and that detachment still gets it's Doctrine. The Scions would not get Storm Troopers unless in an entirely Militarum Tempestus detachment however.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

I think you'll earn more shots for a Baneblade from the Catachan Doctrine than this doctrine, but could do I think - as people say.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Actually it says right under Regimental doctrines (Excluding those in a super heavy Auxiliary detachment). Meaning if you take a Baneblade as part of a Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment it doesn't benefit from any regimental doctrines.

So for them to benefit from a regimental doctrine they have to be taken as part of either a Supreme Command Detachment which means taking 3 extra HQ's plus 1 lord of war. Or the standard Super Heavy detachment which would require you take 3 baneblades or variants to fulfill.

Edit: nevermind I re-read where you were talking about the supreme command detachment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/03 16:09:55


 
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





 Larks wrote:
You actually CAN take Scions in such a detachment as part of the Auxilla and Advisors bit on the same page. They (and Ogryns, Bullgryns, Ratlings, Commissars, etc) can be included in a <REGIMENT> detachment and that detachment still gets it's Doctrine. The Scions would not get Storm Troopers unless in an entirely Militarum Tempestus detachment however.


Just got to my codex and need to correct myself.

The rule I am referring to is actually "Militarum Tempestus" on p132.

The effect is the same, but it's important I actually point to the correct rule.
   
Made in us
Jinking Ravenwing Land Speeder Pilot





From the Designer's Commentary:

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <REGIMENT> and/or <CHAPTER> keywords now work on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?

A: No. The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.

You still have to abide by all the rules pertaining to abilities and restrictions when choosing a doctri e, chapter tactics, etc. Yous BOBS PONY BRIGADEwith TM doctrines are "count-as" tempestus militarum army and therefore must follow all allowances and restrictions pertaining to Tempestuz militarum.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/04 07:45:24


 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




Custom regiments are not the same as counts as.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Custom regiments are exactly what they are discussing as counts as. You made up a regiment and you want it to count t as something for doctrines.

Raw you may not take storm trooper doctrine on a baneblade.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





blaktoof wrote:
Custom regiments are exactly what they are discussing as counts as. You made up a regiment and you want it to count t as something for doctrines.

Raw you may not take storm trooper doctrine on a baneblade.
RaW you most certainly can.

Page 132 Codex: Astra Copywritum
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army.
If I pick my <REGIMENT> keyword to be MR. BLOBBY'S HAPPY HAPPY FUN TIME BRIGADE, then it "does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine" and thus I "may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army." I then pick the "Storm Troopers" doctrine.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/05 20:01:54


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in gb
Sinewy Scourge




 BaconCatBug wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Custom regiments are exactly what they are discussing as counts as. You made up a regiment and you want it to count t as something for doctrines.

Raw you may not take storm trooper doctrine on a baneblade.
RaW you most certainly can.

Page 132 Codex: Astra Copywritum
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army.
If I pick my <REGIMENT> keyword to be MR. BLOBBY'S HAPPY HAPPY FUN TIME BRIGADE, then it "does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine" and thus I "may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army." I then pick the "Storm Troopers" doctrine.


To add to this correct statement this is different to counts as in that you can't use special characters and Stratagems from the original regiment.
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





While on a bane blade this seems meh.

On a Storm lord with full sponsons and a Trojan nearby I could get a decent amount of extras.

So as long as i am a custom brigade I can take storm trooper. Cool.

Something like 2x prim psyker yarrick and Baneblade variant. Which the regiment is bobs pony happpy happy fun time regiment. And he would be fine.

3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
While on a bane blade this seems meh.

On a Storm lord with full sponsons and a Trojan nearby I could get a decent amount of extras.

So as long as i am a custom brigade I can take storm trooper. Cool.

Something like 2x prim psyker yarrick and Baneblade variant. Which the regiment is bobs pony happpy happy fun time regiment. And he would be fine.


It's not that good on a Stormlord either, but IMO stormlords aren't that great.

You'd get more extra shots from a Banehammer with Flamer sponsons and the Catachan keyword, and you can get re-roll 1s from harker to boot, instead of needing Yarrick and a Trojan for re-roll everything.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





I said yarrick i should have said any commi

Also having to be near enough to use flamers is not my idea of where I want to be. Sure it can happen but would rather have 6 shots hitting on 4s with some sort of re roll than 1d6 hits of flamer. And I can shoot at things across the board. Preference i guess.

Not having to move is also key. Parking lot.

3000
3000
2500

on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Custom regiments are exactly what they are discussing as counts as. You made up a regiment and you want it to count t as something for doctrines.

Raw you may not take storm trooper doctrine on a baneblade.
RaW you most certainly can.

Page 132 Codex: Astra Copywritum
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army.
If I pick my <REGIMENT> keyword to be MR. BLOBBY'S HAPPY HAPPY FUN TIME BRIGADE, then it "does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine" and thus I "may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army." I then pick the "Storm Troopers" doctrine.


There is no such thing as creating a faction, anytime any player is making up a faction that is using faction rules it is a counts as faction. Because the act of picking a non made up set of doctrines is tied to counting as zomething. The designers commentary FAQ addresses this directly saying anytime someone creates a faction you cannot use it to circumvent a rules restriction.

Creating made up regiment cheeseboard doesn't allow a player to circumvent the rules restriction that you cannot give storm trooper doctrine to unit's that normally have keyword <regiment>. Doing so goes against the designers commentary FAQ.

If a player wants to make up a regiment they can, but it cant circumvent rules to give units regimental abilities they cannot normally have. As such RAW a baneblade cannot get stormtrooper doctrines per the FAQ.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 16:13:21


 
   
Made in us
Frenzied Juggernaut





ft. Bragg

blaktoof wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Custom regiments are exactly what they are discussing as counts as. You made up a regiment and you want it to count t as something for doctrines.

Raw you may not take storm trooper doctrine on a baneblade.
RaW you most certainly can.

Page 132 Codex: Astra Copywritum
If your chosen regiment does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine, you may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army.
If I pick my <REGIMENT> keyword to be MR. BLOBBY'S HAPPY HAPPY FUN TIME BRIGADE, then it "does not have an associated Regimental Doctrine" and thus I "may pick the doctrine that you feel best represents your army." I then pick the "Storm Troopers" doctrine.


There is no such thing as creating a faction, anytime any player is making up a faction that is using faction rules it is a counts as faction. Because the act of picking a non made up set of doctrines is tied to counting as zomething. The designers commentary FAQ addresses this directly saying anytime someone creates a faction you cannot use it to circumvent a rules restriction.

Creating made up regiment cheeseboard doesn't allow a player to circumvent the rules restriction that you cannot give storm trooper doctrine to unit's that normally have keyword <regiment>. Doing so goes against the designers commentary FAQ.


If a player wants to make up a regiment they can, but it cant circumvent rules to give units regimental abilities they cannot normally have. As such RAW a baneblade cannot get stormtrooper doctrines per the FAQ.


This ^^^^^^

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 17:26:48


Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The example given in the codex is pretty clear. Custom regiments pick a doctrine. No differentiation is made between any of the listed doctrines. There is no keyword trickery here- they absolutely cannot be MILITARUM TEMPESTUS.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




I really don't like agreeing with BaconCatBug, but it's pretty clear here.

People are confusing 'Tempetus Scions' with 'The Storm Trooper Doctrine.'

Tempestus Scions Can Only Ever Have The Storm Troopers Doctrine. That's there thing, and that's cool.

There is no provision in the book what so ever to say other homebrew regiments _can't_ have the Storm Troopers Doctrine. The real restriction is that your scions can never ever Ever be Tallarn, or Cadian.

The restriction is Scions only can take stormtroopers. Not that Storm Troopers can only be taken by Scions. I know it's similar, but it's very distinct, and we've had an FAQ released which while clearly establishing you can't also pretend your a space marine chapter, or that you're all part of the air fleet, but pointedly doesn't say anything about the Storm Troopers Doctrine at all.
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
I really don't like agreeing with BaconCatBug, but it's pretty clear here.

People are confusing 'Tempetus Scions' with 'The Storm Trooper Doctrine.'

Tempestus Scions Can Only Ever Have The Storm Troopers Doctrine. That's there thing, and that's cool.

There is no provision in the book what so ever to say other homebrew regiments _can't_ have the Storm Troopers Doctrine. The real restriction is that your scions can never ever Ever be Tallarn, or Cadian.

The restriction is Scions only can take stormtroopers. Not that Storm Troopers can only be taken by Scions. I know it's similar, but it's very distinct, and we've had an FAQ released which while clearly establishing you can't also pretend your a space marine chapter, or that you're all part of the air fleet, but pointedly doesn't say anything about the Storm Troopers Doctrine at all.


What he said - homebrew regiment is not the same as making a tank a Scions Tank when it can't be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/07 17:52:38


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




At the risk of kicking a hornets nest when it's down,what are people's thoughts on doctrines interacting with the 3 forge world regiments?

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Cardiff

Captyn_Bob wrote:
At the risk of kicking a hornets nest when it's down,what are people's thoughts on doctrines interacting with the 3 forge world regiments?


I thiiiiink it has been cleared up in an official FAQ that the FW Regiments have their own rules so don't benefit from Codex Doctrine rules too.

Edit: yup: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum.pdf

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 18:10:24


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





If you are using a rule to give an unit an ability it cannot normally have by making up a regiment name you are going against the FAQ.

RAW making up a regiment still does not allow you to give storm trooper doctrine to a baneblade because the base rules do not allow it. You are trying to give an ability to an unit that cannot normally have it which the FAQ is directly addressing.

The restriction is only militarum tempestus scions can get storm trooper doctrine, and any unit with regiment cannot pick that. In the codex a bandeblade cannot get storm trooper, so per the FAQ making up a regiment cannot allow you to give an unit an ability it normally would not be able to get.

Q: If I create an Astra Militarum Regiment of my own and name them, for example, the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, and I then also create an Adeptus Astartes Chapter of my own choosing, and also call them the ‘Emperor’s Finest’, do the abilities that work on the <REGIMENT> and/or <CHAPTER> keywords now work on both the Astra Militarum and Adeptus Astartes units?

A: No. The intent of naming Regiments, Chapters, etc. of your own creation is to personalise your collections and not to enable players to circumvent the restrictions on what abilities affect what units. It is also not intended to circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/07 18:22:29


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
Captyn_Bob wrote:
At the risk of kicking a hornets nest when it's down,what are people's thoughts on doctrines interacting with the 3 forge world regiments?


I thiiiiink it has been cleared up in an official FAQ that the FW Regiments have their own rules so don't benefit from Codex Doctrine rules too.

Edit: yup: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum.pdf


Ah yes i'd missed that. Answers my question, still not sure if it's intended to restrict All stratagems or just regiment specific ones.

DFTT 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: