Switch Theme:

Howling Banshees Acrobatic doesn't actually allow 15" charge?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





Page 95 Codex: Craftworlds wrote:Acrobatic: This unit can Advance and charge in the same turn. In a turn in which it Advanced, you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it, and you can add 3 to the resulting charge roll.
Page 192 BRB wrote:Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.
Is it just me, or does the Acrobatic rule not actually allow you to select a unit further than 12" away? All it says is that you can declare charges after they advance only if there are enemy units within 15", not that they can select a unit beyond the 12" permitted by the BRB.

   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





I was positive that I saw something from GW that said if you had this kind of ability that you could declare charges from further away, but I can't find it in the index, rulebook, or craftworld faqs.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






the intent is clear, even though RAW techniqually you are correct.

JOIN MY CRUSADE and gain 4000 RT points!
http://www.eternalcrusade.com/account/sign-up/?ref_code=EC-PLCIKYCABW8PG 
   
Made in fi
Ancient Venerable Dreadnought






Here we go again...

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in es
Furious Fire Dragon





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Page 95 Codex: Craftworlds wrote:Acrobatic: This unit can Advance and charge in the same turn. In a turn in which it Advanced, you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it, and you can add 3 to the resulting charge roll.
Page 192 BRB wrote:Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.
Is it just me, or does the Acrobatic rule not actually allow you to select a unit further than 12" away? All it says is that you can declare charges after they advance only if there are enemy units within 15", not that they can select a unit beyond the 12" permitted by the BRB.


Check page 170 i think the little part with Core and Advanced rules.

Now does the howling banshee ability it's an advanced rules?

Does this ability *build upon the core rules, add to or provide variation* ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 22:56:00


 
   
Made in us
Guarding Guardian





Iwakuni, Japan

Seems clear to me. They can charge units within 15".

"Time was your ally human. But now it has abandoned you." 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Lemane0116 wrote:
Seems clear to me. They can charge units within 15".
Except the rule doesn't say that? All it says is that it may declare charges if there are units within 15" after they advance. It doesn't allow them to target a unit beyond the 12" granted by the BRB.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Lord Perversor wrote:
Check page 170 i think the little part with Core and Advanced rules.

Now does the howling banshee ability it's an advanced rules?

Does this ability *build upon the core rules, add to or provide variation* ?
I am not sure what you are talking about. Page 170 is talking about rules further on in the rulebook, it's not talking about codexes at all. Even if you say it's "building on the core rules", nothing in the Acrobatic rule allows for me to declare a charge against an enemy unit that is more than 12" away.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/21 23:30:09


   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






By all means feel free not to charge your Howling Banshees up to 15". Meanwhile, I will charge 15". Carry on.

 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






It's Groundhog Day!

Seriously though, read the rule and apply it. What does it say you can do? Declare Charges up to 15" instead of 12". There is no doubt as to intent or how to play this rule.

If you've feedback on rules wording precision the appropriate place is the official GW FAQ email address. Send it direct to GW rather than making a YMDC thread. It'll potentially have more effect and elicit less annoyance.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 07:39:43


I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in ca
Nurgle Veteran Marine with the Flu





The Frozen North

RAW, there is nothing that allows you to actually declare a charge against a target more than 12" away, because of the manner in which the Howling Banshee special rule cleverly avoids actually allowing the unit to do so.

Wonderful.

Triggerbaby wrote:In summary, here's your lunch and ask Miss Creaver if she has aloe lotion because I have taken you to school and you have been burned.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I too can prove pretty much any assertion I please if I don't count all the evidence that contradicts it.
 
   
Made in gb
Junior Officer with Laspistol






 MinMax wrote:
RAW, there is nothing that allows you to actually declare a charge against a target more than 12" away, because of the manner in which the Howling Banshee special rule cleverly avoids actually allowing the unit to do so.

Wonderful.


To the GW FAQ email for you as well then! ;-)

I scratch-built a Macharius Vulcan, Thunderbolt and Spartan! Have a peek at the build and my painting progress here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/513429.page

My all-plastic Praetorian build log: http://bit.ly/1K7gn7J

People who say "special snowflake" a lot tend to be unpleasant people.

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

It literally says "you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it", how can you think this isn't modifying " select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge"?
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It literally says "you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it", how can you think this isn't modifying " select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge"?
Because it isn't modifying it. It's literally saying "you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it" not "you can declare a charge move against enemy units that are 15" away".

What it is saying is that you may charge after you advance, but only if there are enemy units within 15" of you.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
It literally says "you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it", how can you think this isn't modifying " select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge"?


   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





A thumbs up doesn't change what the rules say...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 15:19:12


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

RAW, no, they have to choose a unit within 12" like always.

But, I'll chalk this up to other RAW problems like advancing and shooting with Assault weapons, firing pistols within 1" of an enemy, etc etc.

In other words, not even worth talking over with your opponent before the game.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
RAW, no, they have to choose a unit within 12" like always.

But, I'll chalk this up to other RAW problems like advancing and shooting with Assault weapons, firing pistols within 1" of an enemy, etc etc.

In other words, not even worth talking over with your opponent before the game.
So can I assume that if we were to ever play I could declare all my units move 50" and automatically hit and wound? After all, if you're going to ignore one rule, why can't I ignore the rest?

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
RAW, no, they have to choose a unit within 12" like always.

But, I'll chalk this up to other RAW problems like advancing and shooting with Assault weapons, firing pistols within 1" of an enemy, etc etc.

In other words, not even worth talking over with your opponent before the game.
So can I assume that if we were to ever play I could declare all my units move 50" and automatically hit and wound? After all, if you're going to ignore one rule, why can't I ignore the rest?


Yes, you could declare that. The ramifications of which would depend entirely on the game in question, but I won't tell you what you can and can't say or do. I'm not the rulebook.

Heck, as long as I get to declare that my models never actually suffer wounds from yours, you can declare whatever you want. I'd question if it was worth it playing the game in the first place, but I'd ask exactly the same question of someone who said that Howling Banshees can't declare charge targets outside12", so you're screwed either way, BCB

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/01/22 15:22:50


Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





The difference is, I would be following the rules about Banshees, you would not be. That's the benefit of being a RaW purest, you're always correct.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Falls Church, VA

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The difference is, I would be following the rules about Banshees, you would not be. That's the benefit of being a RaW purest, you're always correct.


Correct is not the same thing as right.

And that's the benefit of being a human being and not an unthinking machine that parses colloquial English like it was written in C++.

Some people say they know no fear. What they mean is that they have encountered and conquered it. I, on the other hand, truly know no fear. It is as alien to me as doubt, rage, or mercy.

2nd Concordian Independent Super Heavy Tank Armoured Regiment - 12,376 points
Order of the Luminous Beacon - 2087 points
Nevian Conclave of the Ordo Hereticus - 2002 points 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Reading rules that make perfect sense wrong isn't fun for anyone.
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





Captyn_Bob wrote:
Reading rules that make perfect sense wrong isn't fun for anyone.
I agree, which is why Banshees charging 15" isn't fun for anyone!

   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord





Dallas area, TX

Luckily this is a situation that shouldn't come up very often. Even with +3" declaring a charge against a unit 11" away is a gamble, much less 12-15".
Banshees are too fragile to be left out in the open. And with the 3" disembark distance, 7" move + Advance, it is unlikely for a Banshees target unit to be outside 12' away.

Making a 13-15" 'hail Mary' charge is so unlikely that if you just let the player roll the distance (and fail) your won't really need to "invoke" this rules technicality. The only thing that might change this is the opponent overwatching....which they cannot do against Banshees anyway.

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 15:43:55


Glenn's GW minis: http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/
3000+ pts Aeldari Phoenix clan http://glennsgwmodels.blogspot.com/search/label/Eldar%20and%20Dark%20Eldar

 Xenomancers wrote:
Galef alone could probably fix the game in a week - hes got a lot of good ideas and is reasonable.

 
   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

"you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it"
"you can declare a charge move against enemy units that are 15" away"

You're willfully making a distinction between these statements that isn't there.
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






 BaconCatBug wrote:
The difference is, I would be following the rules about Banshees, you would not be. That's the benefit of being a RaW purest, you're always correct.


Sure. You can also take a nice oat-bag, strap it around the muzzle of that high horse and give it a good brushing while you're walking your models out to the car and putting them in the trunk when no one plays you. So, good...for you? I guess.

 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
"you can declare a charge move for this unit if there are any enemy units within 15" of it"
"you can declare a charge move against enemy units that are 15" away"

You're willfully making a distinction between these statements that isn't there.
Those sentences are not the same thing.

"Charge Move", by definition is limited to 12". Nothing in the rule changes this. All acrobatic does is allow you to charge after an advance, so long as there are models within 15". It does NOT change the definition of charge move.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 16:09:58


   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission





St. Louis, Missouri USA

So from how I read it, the Howling Banshee rules overwrites step 1 in the charge phase and allows you to activate a unit to declare charges if there is an enemy within 15". However, in step 2, the HB rule doesn't grant permission to declare a target farther than 12" inches away. BCB is correct in his assertion, but I think it's a case of RAW vs Intent and I wouldn't disallow anyone the opportunity to select a unit to charge at 13-15" away.

3200
2100
1000
900 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Okay, BaconCatBug, you are 100% technically correct.



However, there's literally NO reason for GW to give them this rule without them being able to select a unit within 12" also. Therefore, your correctness is about as relevant as me saying that space is big.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought





 Yarium wrote:
However, there's literally NO reason for GW to give them this rule without them being able to select a unit within 12" also. Therefore, your correctness is about as relevant as me saying that space is big.
Yes, there is. It allows them to charge after advancing.

   
Made in us
Loyal Necron Lychguard






Palm Beach, FL

He's referring to the "if there are any enemy units within 15" of it," clause, which is pointless if you don't think it modifies the rule that it very obviously modifies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/22 17:56:07


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: