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Hi, DakkaDakka.

So, my question is simple, but I couldn't answer it myself.

Whats the definition of "shooting attack" and "shoot"?

This question has started to eaten me, since i saw hellbrute's "Crazed" ability, and some are other abilities.

Crazed: At the end of any phase in which this model su ers any unsaved wounds or mortal wounds, roll
a D6. On a roll of 6, this model immediately makes a shooting attack as if it were your Shooting phase if there are no enemies within 1", or piles in and ghts as if it were the Fight phase if there are enemies within 1". If there is no visible target within range, nothing happens


So... what is "shooting attack"?

Is it a whole new round of shooting? But why then we have Endless Cacophony stratagem: Use this Stratagem at the end of your Shooting phase. Select a HERETIC ASTARTES SLAANESH INFANTRY or BIKER unit – that unit can immediately shoot again.

So, this stratagem have a clear definition for "another round of shooting".

So, now we go for BRB and gonna look at page 178: number of attack: "Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks. You roll one dice for each attack being made. The number of attacks a model can make with a weapon, and therefore the number of dice you can roll, is found on the weapon’s profile, along with the weapon’s type." So, maybe this is just a single "attack"? Which means i will make not D3, but 1 "only" shot with my plasma cannon?

But now lets look into the codex: astra militarum. Storm Troopers doctrine: «If a model with this doctrine is shooting a target at half range or less, it can make an extra shot with the same weapon, at the same target,for each hit roll of 6+ you make for that model. These extra shots do not themselves generate any more additional shots»

Hey, so extra "attacks" with shooting weapons are "shots" now? Or do they?

The funny thing is, that all kinds of the rules like this are super clear for melee attacks, but shooting is just a mess. What about noise marines' "Music of the Apocalypse"? Do i make 3 shots with my blaster, or simply one S4 AP0 D1 "shot"/"attack"??

I am confused, Dakkdakka, so I MADE DA CALL!!

Same thing, different wording for the first two. Scions one is a shot. Shot, attack, same thing.

The rules wording isn't laser-beam precise and lawyer-tight. Lots of colloquial wording.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Same thing, different wording for the first two. Scions one is a shot. Shot, attack, same thing.

The rules wording isn't laser-beam precise and lawyer-tight. Lots of colloquial wording.

There is a difference. "Shoot again" gives you a full allotment of shots. Making a single shooting attack is one shot.

Compare the AM Stratagem Volley Fire vs the Storm Troopers Doctrine

Volley Fire wrote:Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model in that unit, that model can immediately shoot again with the same weapon at the same target

Storm Troopers wrote:If a model with this doctrine is shooting a target at half range or less, it can make an extra shot with the same weapon, at the same target, for each hit roll of 6+ you make for that model.

The one thing that is laser-beam precise: "crazed" ability with its wording is making me crazy.

model immediately makes a shooting attack as if it were your Shooting phase if there are no enemies within 1"

Is this "if it were your shooting phase" reference is made for the purpose of "not shooting into melee" thing?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Same thing, different wording for the first two. Scions one is a shot. Shot, attack, same thing.

The rules wording isn't laser-beam precise and lawyer-tight. Lots of colloquial wording.

There is a difference. "Shoot again" gives you a full allotment of shots. Making a single shooting attack is one shot.

Compare the AM Stratagem Volley Fire vs the Storm Troopers Doctrine

Volley Fire wrote:Each time you make a hit roll of 6+ for a model in that unit, that model can immediately shoot again with the same weapon at the same target

Storm Troopers wrote:If a model with this doctrine is shooting a target at half range or less, it can make an extra shot with the same weapon, at the same target, for each hit roll of 6+ you make for that model.

No I already addressed that in my post, shooting attack / shoot again = same thing, 'a shot' is a shot. Apologies if the end of my post muddied and left it unclear, but I know that the Scions one is literally 'a shot'.

I'm going to have to go with additional attack = 1 single shot.
There are a lot of abilities like this now. Some official clarification would be good.
Still would look at it on a case by case basis. The wording is far from consistent.

I'm pretty sure the hellbrutes one should be to fire all it's weapons, but that isn't how it's written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A big offender is the khorne daemon artefact the crimson crown.
For each wound of 6+ the bearer can make an extra attack using the same weapon.

Shoot again with the weapon or a single extra shot? Single shot makes the most sense.

HIWPI is it can fire all its weapons.

The Crimson Crown one reads like Scions, so one attack per 6+ to wound, not a new round of attacks.

I would say it's pick a single weapon and do whatever that weapon does.

If the model could shoot as though it was the shooting phase it could fire everything. But making "a shooting attack" sounds like a partial phase. So pick 1 weapon and carry it out.

«Each time a charge is declared against a unit, the target unit can immediately fireOverwatch at the would-be attacker. A target unit can potentially fire Overwatch several times a turn, though it cannot fire if there are any enemy models within 1" of it. Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy’s Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,

So... i have found a "shooting attack" socalled "reference" in overwatch section.

Since when we "shooting attacking" enemy on overwatch with full weapon profile, including number of shots/attacks, can we sujest then, that shooting attack = shooting a full profile weapon with all attacks?

I see the phrase "shooting attack" 13 times in the 8th ed rule book.

Some of these could be interpreted to mean either a single attack or a single shoot, and none of them are particularly well defined.

However, there are definitely references to "units making shooting attacks". There are no references that I can see to "models making shooting attacks".

Unless this is supposed to imply a default whereby that unit only has one ranged weapon with a single attack, I think it implies that "shooting attack" means every model in the unit shooting.

Another clue might be the Return Fire stratagem. I doubt that's worth 2 CP for a single attack. Each model in the unit making all their attacks sounds fair however.

Dammit, this game really needs some de-overloading of common terms, the word "attack" almost has as many meanings as the word "wound".