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Double question (since it might be different for loyal and traitor marines).


Space Marines
Page 195 of the Space Marines Codex (first page of the "Sons of the Primarchs" section) states that other Space Marine Chapters such as Blood Angels and Space Wolves, quote "cannot make use of any of the rules or abilities listed in this section".

The header to the section states that, quote, "these rules include [...] a series of Stratagems".




Chaos Space Marines
Page 157 of the Chaos Space Marines Codex (first page of the section "The Lost and the Damned" includes near-identical text preventing Death Guard and Thousand Sons from using "any of the rules or abilities listed in this section", which again explicitly includes all Stratagems listed in the CSM Codex as per the header.


But .... the new Death Guard FAQ actually says Death Guard can use CSM errata, requiring only a keyword-match and a CSM Detachment to "unlock" acess to the CSM Stratagems. Aside from the FAQ, there is no actual errata changing rules in the CSM (or SM) Codex.





Question 1: Assuming Stratagems are "unlocked" and Keywords match, can Death Guard units use CSM Stratagems (e.g. Cultists as in the FAQ example)?

Question 2: Assuming Stratagems are "unlocked" and Keywords match, can Space Wolves (Blood Angels, Deathwatch, etc..) use SM Stratagems (e.g. Auspex Scan on Long Fangs or Honour the Chapter on Wulfen due to matching Adeptus Astartes keywords)?

1) Yes.

2) Yes, though some might disagree due to "RaI" arguments.

Yes and yes.
The codex Daemons faq has thrown up some questions about the intent, but that's the rules as it stands.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

2) Yes, though some might disagree due to "RaI" arguments.

I come down on the side that it's no, and that isn't RAI, it's what's written in the SM codex.

Specifically the passage at the start of the section on Strats etc, which says abilities in this section cannot be used with Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels. Some argue Strats aren't abilities, so this does not apply, but I assert that 'abilities' are poorly defined in the game. So we have to use an English definition, which I would argue absolutely covers Strats.

Note that despite a similar exception in the CSM book, it actually doesn't apply to Death Guard with regards to stratagems, due to an FAQ. I would consider this a 'special snowflake' though, and not an indication of how to use the SM codex strats.

Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

2) Yes, though some might disagree due to "RaI" arguments.

I come down on the side that it's no, and that isn't RAI, it's what's written in the SM codex.

Specifically the passage at the start of the section on Strats etc, which says abilities in this section cannot be used with Dark Angels, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels. Some argue Strats aren't abilities, so this does not apply, but I assert that 'abilities' are poorly defined in the game. So we have to use an English definition, which I would argue absolutely covers Strats.

Note that despite a similar exception in the CSM book, it actually doesn't apply to Death Guard with regards to stratagems, due to an FAQ. I would consider this a 'special snowflake' though, and not an indication of how to use the SM codex strats.

But it doesn't just say abilities. It says rules and abilities. And it specifically says the rules include abilities and stratagems.

So RAW, I would think it would not allow Space Wolves to use SM Stratagems. But the Death Guard FAQ seems like a RAI pointer that they should be able to use it.

Your Space Wolves are not using the rules, your Space Marines are. The Space Marines use the stratagem, and then at that point they can pick ANY unit that fits the stratagems keyword requirements. Much the same way as you can unlock a free relic with a SM warlord and give it to any character that meets the keyword requirements of the relic.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Your Space Wolves are not using the rules, your Space Marines are. The Space Marines use the stratagem, and then at that point they can pick ANY unit that fits the stratagems keyword requirements. Much the same way as you can unlock a free relic with a SM warlord and give it to any character that meets the keyword requirements of the relic.

Ah. I finally understand the argument here. Genuinely thought people were quibbling over the definition of 'abilities'.

Can't really argue that that is RAW. Won't use them myself, as personally I feel it is an abuse. But I concede the RAW argument.

Stux wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Your Space Wolves are not using the rules, your Space Marines are. The Space Marines use the stratagem, and then at that point they can pick ANY unit that fits the stratagems keyword requirements. Much the same way as you can unlock a free relic with a SM warlord and give it to any character that meets the keyword requirements of the relic.

Ah. I finally understand the argument here. Genuinely thought people were quibbling over the definition of 'abilities'.

Can't really argue that that is RAW. Won't use them myself, as personally I feel it is an abuse. But I concede the RAW argument.

Well it's the same situation with DG, so we know it's intentional.

The only exception is the Daemons keyword for CD stratagems because GW used the keyword they wanted to use to limit the stratagems viable targets elsewhere, so they had to add the extra bit about faction and regular keywords

If it's intentional though, why all the copy paste strats from Space Marines in the other books? Surely they get them anyway?

Stux wrote:
If it's intentional though, why all the copy paste strats from Space Marines in the other books? Surely they get them anyway?

You only get access to Codex Space Marines stratagems if your army is battle-forged and includes any Space Marines detachments. A Blood Angels detachment does not count as a Space Marines detachment, so if you were running only Blood Angels for example, unless you have the copy paste stratagems in Codex: Blood Angels, you cannot use those stratagems.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

You only get access to Codex Space Marines stratagems if your army is battle-forged and includes any Space Marines detachments. A Blood Angels detachment does not count as a Space Marines detachment, so if you were running only Blood Angels for example, unless you have the copy paste stratagems in Codex: Blood Angels, you cannot use those stratagems.

I think you misunderstood the question. This was, assuming you DO have access to SM stratagems because you have a SM detachment that gives it to you, can you use the SM stratagems on units that are not from the SM codex but that do have the required keywords (like BA?). And the answer to this is yes. You don't unlock SM stratagems with BAs, but you CAN use SM stratagems on BAs (if the required keywords match) if you unlock them with a SM detachment.

Teschio wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

You only get access to Codex Space Marines stratagems if your army is battle-forged and includes any Space Marines detachments. A Blood Angels detachment does not count as a Space Marines detachment, so if you were running only Blood Angels for example, unless you have the copy paste stratagems in Codex: Blood Angels, you cannot use those stratagems.

I think you misunderstood the question. This was, assuming you DO have access to SM stratagems because you have a SM detachment that gives it to you, can you use the SM stratagems on units that are not from the SM codex but that do have the required keywords (like BA?). And the answer to this is yes. You don't unlock SM stratagems with BAs, but you CAN use SM stratagems on BAs (if the required keywords match) if you unlock them with a SM detachment.

It sounds like you agree with Mr. Shine, and your comment was really meant to respond to Stux's post.

Teschio wrote:
I think you misunderstood the question. This was, assuming you DO have access to SM stratagems because you have a SM detachment that gives it to you, can you use the SM stratagems on units that are not from the SM codex but that do have the required keywords (like BA?). And the answer to this is yes. You don't unlock SM stratagems with BAs, but you CAN use SM stratagems on BAs (if the required keywords match) if you unlock them with a SM detachment.

What Cream Tea said. You've either quoted me by mistake, or you've completely missed Stux's question I was answering, which was to explain why Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights share some of the same stratagems as Codex Space Marines and why, if they didn't have their own copies of those stratagems in their own codices, they would not just get them anyway.

 Mr. Shine wrote:


What Cream Tea said. You've either quoted me by mistake, or you've completely missed Stux's question I was answering, which was to explain why Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Grey Knights share some of the same stratagems as Codex Space Marines and why, if they didn't have their own copies of those stratagems in their own codices, they would not just get them anyway.

Which is why the current rule seems either needlessly obtuse or incorrectly interpreted as allowing them to use Vanilla Space Marine Stratagems.

What was the point of including the paragraph disallowing Blood Angels, etc.. of using Vanilla SM Stratagems without an "unlock" when all this does was "forcing" BA & co. players to include 5 Ultramarine Scouts and an HQ (and endless discussions about whether its possible or not).

Why not just allow Stratagems by Keywords full stop or disallow Stratagems across Codex books full stop? Either variant would have less than 1% of the drama and a lot less text devoted to obtuse rules prone to misinterpretation and disagreements on top of it.

Why? It's GW. That's why. They care not one ounce about well written rules or balance.

What Sunny Side Up Said, basically.

If it is intentional, it seems like a really obtuse and roundabout way of writing it.

I don't think you can use SM stratagems on anything other than units in codex; space marines actually. I'm quite certain this is their intent. The OP has quoted the relevant part of the book for ease of reference.

Why do I think this? Because it could lead to future stratagem abuse.

Let's assume there was a space marine stratagem that allowed a unit to fight an extra time in the fight phase. Let's assume that Space Wolves also get a stratagem that allows them to fight another time in the fight phase. If Space Wolves were able to use SM stratagems then they could use the same stratagem (in effect, if not name) twice on the same unit (in this case - fight another time stratagem). This is contrary to the design ethos of 8th and for that reason I think the above assertion is incorrect.

All this depends on how many "legal" options there are of course. How many stratagems could Space Wolves or BAngels use of the SM stratagems? Are there many?

Worst comes to worst, GW will FAQ the stratagems to effect only "Faction - Space Marine" units like they did with Daemons.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't think you can use SM stratagems on anything other than units in codex; space marines actually. I'm quite certain this is their intent. The OP has quoted the relevant part of the book for ease of reference.

You can think that all you want, you're wrong. Just as wrong as if you had claimed "you can't shoot a Flyer with a Flamer, because RaI". The Rules permit you to use them on any unit that matches the keyword restrictions, and the Death Guard FAQ confirms this. The Chaos Daemons FAQ literally ignores the RaW and ignores the previous FAQ saying Faction Keywords only apply to list building. Either GW needs to change the basic RaW or make a Special Snowflake FAQ that applies to ALL stratagems. Until then, you can use stratagems on anything you want that is legal to do so, with the exception of Daemon stratagems.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't think you can use SM stratagems on anything other than units in codex; space marines actually. I'm quite certain this is their intent. The OP has quoted the relevant part of the book for ease of reference.

You can think that all you want, you're wrong. Just as wrong as if you had claimed "you can't shoot a Flyer with a Flamer, because RaI". The Rules permit you to use them on any unit that matches the keyword restrictions, and the Death Guard FAQ confirms this. The Chaos Daemons FAQ literally ignores the RaW and ignores the previous FAQ saying Faction Keywords only apply to list building. Either GW needs to change the basic RaW or make a Special Snowflake FAQ that applies to ALL stratagems. Until then, you can use stratagems on anything you want that is legal to do so, with the exception of Daemon stratagems.

By your own argument the Daemon FAQ doesn't ignore anything it IS RAW. It is also the most recent FAQ and so supersedes the Death Guard one.
The Death Guard FAQ makes no mention of Codex Space Marine units and the chapters that deviate from it, therefore RAW actually backs up the fact that only SM units can use SM stratagems.
I'm sure GW will release an FAQ to make their intent clear in due course.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I don't think you can use SM stratagems on anything other than units in codex; space marines actually. I'm quite certain this is their intent. The OP has quoted the relevant part of the book for ease of reference.

You can think that all you want, you're wrong. Just as wrong as if you had claimed "you can't shoot a Flyer with a Flamer, because RaI". The Rules permit you to use them on any unit that matches the keyword restrictions, and the Death Guard FAQ confirms this. The Chaos Daemons FAQ literally ignores the RaW and ignores the previous FAQ saying Faction Keywords only apply to list building. Either GW needs to change the basic RaW or make a Special Snowflake FAQ that applies to ALL stratagems. Until then, you can use stratagems on anything you want that is legal to do so, with the exception of Daemon stratagems.

By your own argument the Daemon FAQ doesn't ignore anything it IS RAW. It is also the most recent FAQ and so supersedes the Death Guard one.
The Death Guard FAQ makes no mention of Codex Space Marine units and the chapters that deviate from it, therefore RAW actually backs up the fact that only SM units can use SM stratagems.
I'm sure GW will release an FAQ to make their intent clear in due course.

Unless I missed something (I'm not a Chaos player and therefore don't re-read those FAQs much):
The Daemon FAQ contains a bunch of errata for both CSM and CD, to make the whole Faction vs Regular Keyword thing work for CD Stratagems - and it introduces the concept of "Faction and Regular Keywords aren't treated the same" which is a new thing errata'd in.
The limitation to CD Stratagems is not the source of the datasheet or stratagem, the limitation is in the keywords.

The Deathguard FAQ clarifies that, while access to Stratagems must be unlocked by having an appropiate Detachment, you only check the keywords / limitations of the stratagem itself when you use it.

Examples:
If a stratagem calls for DREADNOUGHT, any unit with that keyword is a valid target.
If a stratagem calls for ADEPTUS ASTARTES INFANTRY, any unit with these two keywords is a valid target.
If a stratagem calls for DEATHGUARD INFANTRY, any unit with these two keywords is a valid target.
If a stratagem calls for DARK ANGELS, any unit with that keyword is a valid target.

Yes, that means you can unlock C:SM stratagems cheaply and then use them on any of the other flavours of space marines (as long as they fulfill the requirements of that stratagem). They said it's intentional, see DG/CSM - it's the same situation.

The whole DAEMONS thing is a very unique thing because they simply fethed up their keywords. If they'd picked different keywords to represent "this unit is literally a daemon"(for fun: replace these with INFANTRY) and "this unit is part of a daemon army" (replace it with GREY KNIGHTS), they'd been fine.

You need an SM detatchment to unlock SM strategems

An SM strategem targeting an astartes unit can target BA because they are astartes

An SM strategem targeting <chapter> cannot because they are not a SM codex <chapter>