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Hey all,

I'm currently working on a Iyanden army but have only just finished building them up and still want to go to a tournament or two in the meantime. So I managed to pick up a load of Black Templars in a nifty trade that are ready painted and I'd just need to paint up another 300/400 points for a 1K doubles army. As I've been doing this I've really been thinking about a nasty 2K list and actually ended up pulling the trigger and buying almost enough for that!

Battalion Detachment:

HQ:

High Marshal Helbrecht
Lieutenant w/Power Maul, Storm Bolter, Crusader Helm

Troops:

10 Man Crusader Squad:
2x Initiate w/Boltgun
2x Initiate w/Boltpistol/Chainsword
1x Initiate w/Multmelta
1x Initiate w/Meltagun
1x Sword Brother w/Dual Lightning Claws
1x Neophyte w/Boltgun
1x Neophyte w/Combat Knife
1x Neophyte w/Shotgun

6 Man Crusader Squad:
2x Initiate w/Boltgun
1x Initiate w/Chainsword
1x Initiate w/Multimelta
1x Sword Brother w/Boltgun/Power Sword
1x Neophyte w/Boltgun

6 Man Crusader Squad:
2x Initiate w/Boltgun
1x Initiate w/Chainsword
1x Initiate w/Multimelta
1x Sword Brother w/Boltgun/Power Fist
1x Neophyte w/Boltgun

Heavy Support:

Land Raider Crusader

Dedicated Transport:

2x Razorback w/Twin Heavy bolters

Vanguard Detachment:

HQ:

The Emperors Champion
Chaplain Grimaldus

Elites:

Sternguard Veteran Squad:
1x Sergeant w/Chainsword, Special Issue Boltgun
1x Sternguards w/Combi Plasma
2x Sternguards w/Special issue Boltguns
1x Sternguards w/Heavy Flamer

2x Cenobyte Sevitors

Dedicated Transport:

Drop Pod w/Storm Bolter

Supreme Command Detachment:

HQ:
3x Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/Hurricane Bolter, Interceptor Lance

So i'd be packing the 10 Man Crusader squad with Helbrecht & the Lieutenant in the Crusader (lots of dakka + close combat rerolling charges with rerolling hits rerolling 1's to wound and strength 5 attacks).

Both 6 Man Crusaders in their own Razorbacks. This allows more scope for objective grabbing I think with some tough armour.

The Sternguard + Grimaldus + Emperors Champion would be loaded up into the Drop Pod on their own to be deepstrike where needed.

Shield Captains moving around quickly and extremely hard to take down that can grab objectives.

Servitors sit at the back on an objective looking pretty.

Thoughts appreciated from the community as always!

I don't know if this kind of response is allowed on dakka forums, if it's against forum rules let me know and I will rectify it.
Check out hive city hobby on YouTube and look for their podcast series "gaming against the grain" Adam is doing a project trying to get the most out of the black templars in a competitive setting, he's been quite successful in competitive 40k here in Aus and I'm sure any Templars player will be interested to check out his ideas.

JonnySee4 wrote:
I don't know if this kind of response is allowed on dakka forums, if it's against forum rules let me know and I will rectify it.
Check out hive city hobby on YouTube and look for their podcast series "gaming against the grain" Adam is doing a project trying to get the most out of the black templars in a competitive setting, he's been quite successful in competitive 40k here in Aus and I'm sure any Templars player will be interested to check out his ideas.

Cheers for that fella, although he doesn't talk much about list construction just unit reviews etc.

Hoping someone can chime in about my list...

Or the list that bad or doesn't need improvements ?

I think the issue is most people on here don't know enough about black templars to make an educated post (At least in my case).

At my local shops I have 0 BT players, and reading this list I think I need to brush up on these units.

 papaseven wrote:
I think the issue is most people on here don't know enough about black templars to make an educated post (At least in my case).

At my local shops I have 0 BT players, and reading this list I think I need to brush up on these units.

Fair enough mate, I guess anything outside of smurfs and ravenguard people don't ever bother try using competitively ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Big fan of the Black Templars and honestly if I had to start a new army it would be BT. The models look so nice.

That being said I did read up on BTs here are a few points to consider.

- Your 10 man squad goes into the Land Raider to rip face? Get ride of the 2 Boltguns and swap for Chainswords.
Swap the meltagun for a flamer to help with overwatch should you get charged after wiping or finishing off a unit. Also give your Neophytes combat blades in the 10 man squad. More choppy.

In your 6-man squads swap the lone chainsword initiate for a Boltgun one. More shooty for fire support.

Alternative take:
Take 2 Crusader squads, 5 man. One choppy and One shooty and stick them in the same Rhino. That way they complete each other and have each other's back.

Not familiar with Custodes so I will pass but hopefully I gave some advice worth considering.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:
Big fan of the Black Templars and honestly if I had to start a new army it would be BT. The models look so nice.

That being said I did read up on BTs here are a few points to consider.

- Your 10 man squad goes into the Land Raider to rip face? Get ride of the 2 Boltguns and swap for Chainswords.
Swap the meltagun for a flamer to help with overwatch should you get charged after wiping or finishing off a unit. Also give your Neophytes combat blades in the 10 man squad. More choppy.

In your 6-man squads swap the lone chainsword initiate for a Boltgun one. More shooty for fire support.

Alternative take:
Take 2 Crusader squads, 5 man. One choppy and One shooty and stick them in the same Rhino. That way they complete each other and have each other's back.

Not familiar with Custodes so I will pass but hopefully I gave some advice worth considering.

Tbh you're probably right, I think I'll actually break them down into two squads, bolt pistols/chainswords for initiates and Heavy Bolters and Flamers for both units. Also think as it's my first go at Templars I'll end up dropping the Custodes (Don't even have those models at hand) and bring in Thunder Hammer Storm Shield Terminators and buff the sternguard with more plasma and also get some support characters in for them like an Apothecary and also a company ancient for the Land Raiders.

With points left over I can actually pop Lascannons on the Razorbacks to be able to lend more anti tank, although I'm always wary of putting alot of points into units that can degrade :/

Cheers!

I personally feel that grimmy is over costed by about 20 points. Exploding 6s are nice but not for as many points as you are paying for them.

I also feel the same way about helbrecht. That +1str would be great if it were for units w/in 6" not just models.

Outside of that. The 10 man crusader squad seems a bit schitzo. You are spending a lot on ranged weapons for a unit that you want to get stuck into combat. Would be better to run that as a 2x 5 man van vet squad with 2x chainswords for maximum horde blending.

The drop pod + sternguard seems a bit repetitive and expensive for what you are getting. The custodes will do a better job of engaging valuable targets. I'd think of using a squad of deepstriking termies, vanguard vets w/ jump packs (sword brother w/ a TH) or some dakka ceptors to fill that role.

I hate land raiders. They die too easy, you don't have enough heavy armor targets to give your opponent something else to shoot at so that thing will probably die turn 1 (depending on how comp your meta is but if armies are tuned to remove morty or magnus turn 1 that LRC stands no chance).

Probably better served to turn that into 3 razorbacks. RB1 w/ 5 VV + LT, RB2 w/ 5 VV + chaplin, if you have the points RB3 3+2 CS (suicide over watch eating squad) + EC

You'd end up with like

4-5 razorbacks (2 with vets, 1 with cs suicide squad? and 2 with shooty CS)

chaplin
LT
EC
if you can fit in a Thunder hammer jump pack captain to support deepstriking termies/jp vets/dakka ceptors

troops
2x CS squads
2x scout squads

l337s
2x VV squads (sword bros w/ lightning claws?)
servators
jp vets / termies?

FA
dakka ceptors?

transports
4-5x rb (I like dual AC better than heavy bolters)

Scouts screen deployment zone. Damn near everything is in a transport to begin with. Zoom up the board towards objectives turn 1. Turn 2 get out and chop stuff up.

Problems will come when 2-3 RBs get popped turn 1 and you end up footslogging up the board (same problem if LRC gets popped and harder to do 30 t7 3+ wounds than 16 t8 2+). Hopefully custodes are enough of a distraction that not all of their high powered shooting goes at the RBs.

You blend up hordes (2x CS VVs get a lot of attacks per point) you suffer against well armored foes and don't have a lot of anti tank. Maybe throw some las cannons on the 2 RBs transporting the CS to entice your opponent to shoot at them vs the VV transports?

You could replace the 2x RBs carrying the 2x vet squads to one rhino and then put your LT and chaplin in the other 2 RBs with the shooty crusader squads if you need to squeeze a couple more points to fit those custodes.

TBH I've shelved my templars (actually painted a couple of their arms white and ran them as ravenguard...). I play in a very competitive local meta and I just couldn't get them to work.

bananathug wrote:
I personally feel that grimmy is over costed by about 20 points. Exploding 6s are nice but not for as many points as you are paying for them.

I also feel the same way about helbrecht. That +1str would be great if it were for units w/in 6" not just models.

Outside of that. The 10 man crusader squad seems a bit schitzo. You are spending a lot on ranged weapons for a unit that you want to get stuck into combat. Would be better to run that as a 2x 5 man van vet squad with 2x chainswords for maximum horde blending.

The drop pod + sternguard seems a bit repetitive and expensive for what you are getting. The custodes will do a better job of engaging valuable targets. I'd think of using a squad of deepstriking termies, vanguard vets w/ jump packs (sword brother w/ a TH) or some dakka ceptors to fill that role.

I hate land raiders. They die too easy, you don't have enough heavy armor targets to give your opponent something else to shoot at so that thing will probably die turn 1 (depending on how comp your meta is but if armies are tuned to remove morty or magnus turn 1 that LRC stands no chance).

Probably better served to turn that into 3 razorbacks. RB1 w/ 5 VV + LT, RB2 w/ 5 VV + chaplin, if you have the points RB3 3+2 CS (suicide over watch eating squad) + EC

Thanks for the critque mate, I don't think my local gaming scene is ultra power gamery (I'd never take this to a LVO or London GT, I'd rather take my Wraithhost Iyanden as I think they'd have more of a chance albeit still small) but I like to play thematically and so does my scene (at the same time no slouches when it comes to making strong lists). Might shelve the special/heavy weapons on the LRC unit then and go full on BP/CS, I've got the models for it at least. I can put Crusader helm on Helbrecht for a 9" 5str bubble making it far more effective also and a company ancient with them.

As for the Sternguard/Terminator Deepstriking units I'd like to see how a squad of Sternguard can nuke 1 unit with plasma then charge another, they're no slouches in combat either with 2 attacks each 3 on sergeant assisted by the emeperors champ + the potential for those exploding 6's with Grimaldus I would hope this could shred a couple units alone.

As for Scouts BT don't have them fluff wise so don't think I'd rock them. I do however like the idea of dakkainterceptors alot. So will have to consider picking up a unit of those.

I'd like to try make them work first after thinking about it without the Custodes, if I get pummeled in my first half dozen matches without progression I'll think about a Knight Titan or the golden boys as allies Main thing is that I'd like to go against the grain, everyone's Raven Guard or Ultramarines, plus BT have some of the best fluff in 40k!

I've had a rejig and hoping to make this work based on peoples thoughts as well as remaining thematic:

Battalion:

Hellbrecht w/ Crusader Helm Relic (Inside LRC)
Lieutenant w/Power Maul, Storm Bolter (Inside LRC)

Troops:

Crusader Squad (Inside LRC):
5x Initiate w/Chainsword, Bolt Pistol
1x Sword Brother w/Lightning Claws
1x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

Crusader Squad (Inside LRC):
4x Initiate w/Chainsword, Bolt Pistol
1x Sword Brother w/Powerfist. Boltgun
1x Neophyte w/Combat Knife

Crusader Squad (Inside RB):
2x Initiate w/Boltgun
1x Initiate w/Lascannon
1x Initiate w/Plasma Gun
1x Sword Brother w/ Power Sword, Boltgun
1x Neophyte w/Boltgun

Crusader Squad (Inside RB):
2x Initiate w/Boltgun
1x Initiate w/Lascannon
1x Initiate w/Plasma Gun
1x Sword Brother w/ Power Sword, Boltgun
1x Neophyte w/Boltgun

Elites:

1x Company Ancient w/Stormbolter, Astartes Banner

Heavy Support:

LRC

Dedicated Transport:

2x RB's w/Lascannon, Storm Bolter

Vanguard Detachment:

HQ:

Chaplain Grimaldus (Inside Drop Pod)
The Emperors Champion (Inside Drop Pod)

Elites:

1x Apothecary (Inside Drop Pod)

Sternguard Veteran Squad (Inside Drop Pod):
1x Sergeant w/Combi Plasma, Power Axe
4x Sternguard w/ Combi Plasma

Terminator Assault Squad:
1x Sergeant w/Lightning Claws
4x Thunder Hammer Storm Shield

Dedicated Transport:

Drop Pod w/Storm Bolter

It may be a flawed understanding but I don't think named characters can take relics.

For the scouts, hell just call them neophites (I use the same models for both) and throw them out there to do some on the job training (or dying, but hey it's for the emperor right?)

Run the math on those sternguard and I think you'd figure that 85 point pod would be better off spent turning them into dakka ceptors or vets with jump packs or even assault termies (reivers?)

Or throw the whole thing away and go old school black tide. I think 4x 6 ini + 4 neos all with CCWs and BPs storming out of rhinos (use the rhinos to charge 1st and eat the overwatch or block some LOS and then charge from behind the rhino then send the rhinos to charge other things you don't want shooting)

Lead by chaplin grimmy, EC and Helbeezy in a storm raven with an ironclad dread and some sword bros (van vets)? Make sure you park that bad boy out of range of your enemy so it only has to survive one round of shooting?

Potential to just drown enemies in bodies. You would need some objective grabbers, primaris reivers? They look very great painted in black and love to chop stuff?

It's awesome you are keeping with the boys in black. It makes sense thematically they'd ally with custodes, being the emperors favorites and all. Would be nice to squeeze them in.

[edit] I like the look of the list you put up there. Looks fun and choppy. Best of luck!!

More food for thought. The main reasoning behind the drop pod was mainly to have an efficient delivery method for the Emperors champion as he’s just pure boss, he’s ridiculously cheap for being able to take on models double his value (maybe even bobby G). I almost feel like the low cost of him actually validates the drop pod to make the most use out of him. Plus I think people disregard the usefulness of drop pods in the way they can grab an objective or bottleneck an enemy or screen a unit.

I do like the idea of reivers and love the models so that’s another unit I’d have to consider. I wish a Caestus Assault ram was able to transport dreads as I think of all the flyers that one is the most Templar like and it has some serious anti heavy weaponry which the list lacks a little.

Will have to give my all templars list a whirl a few times to see what it’s really lacking then take on all the feedback

bananathug wrote:
It may be a flawed understanding but I don't think named characters can take relics.

For the scouts, hell just call them neophites (I use the same models for both) and throw them out there to do some on the job training (or dying, but hey it's for the emperor right?)

Run the math on those sternguard and I think you'd figure that 85 point pod would be better off spent turning them into dakka ceptors or vets with jump packs or even assault termies (reivers?)

Or throw the whole thing away and go old school black tide. I think 4x 6 ini + 4 neos all with CCWs and BPs storming out of rhinos (use the rhinos to charge 1st and eat the overwatch or block some LOS and then charge from behind the rhino then send the rhinos to charge other things you don't want shooting)

Lead by chaplin grimmy, EC and Helbeezy in a storm raven with an ironclad dread and some sword bros (van vets)? Make sure you park that bad boy out of range of your enemy so it only has to survive one round of shooting?

Potential to just drown enemies in bodies. You would need some objective grabbers, primaris reivers? They look very great painted in black and love to chop stuff?

It's awesome you are keeping with the boys in black. It makes sense thematically they'd ally with custodes, being the emperors favorites and all. Would be nice to squeeze them in.

[edit] I like the look of the list you put up there. Looks fun and choppy. Best of luck!!

So had a tinker with the list taking onboard some of your comments, but only with the ability to tweak to abit as I'm restricted by models I own and would want to buy

Battalion:



HQ:

High Marshall Helbrecht
Lieutenant w/Power Maul, Storm Bolter

Troops:

Choppy Crusader Squad In Helbrechts LRC:
1x Sword Brother w/Pair of Lightning Claws
6x Initiates w/Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
2x Neophytes w/Bolt Pistol, Combat Knife
1x Neophyte w/Shotgun

Shooty Crusader Squad In Razorback:
1x Sword Brother w/Power Axe, Storm Bolter
3x Initiates w/Boltgun
1x Initiate w/Lascannon

Scout Squad:
1x Scout Sergeant w/Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
4x Scouts w/Bolt Pistol Combat Knife

Scout Squad:
1x Scout Sergeant w/Bolt Pistol, Chainsword
3x Scouts w/Boltguns
1x Scout w/Heavy Bolter

Dedicated Transport:

Razorback w/Lascannon



Spearhead:

HQ:

The Emperors Champion

Heavy Support:

Land Raider Crusader w/Hunter Killer Missile

Rapier Quad Heavy Bolter

Relic Leviathan Dreadnought w/Siege Claw/Meltagun, Grav Flux Bombard



Supreme Command:

HQ:

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/Hurricane Bolter (Warlord w/Auric Aquilis, Radiant Mantle).

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/Hurricane Bolter

Shield Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike w/Hurricane Bolter

I went against the fluff and went for a couple squads of Scouts for spacing and to counter Alpha Strikes (is this sufficient?). I filled out my last slot in heavy with a Quad Heavy Bolter to support the shooty scouts.

Helbrecht, The Emperors Champ, Lieutenant (Reroll all bubble +1 to strength and rerolling 1's to wound) and the choppy marines in the LRC to go straight up the board to get into the thick of it. Razorback supports where needed with shooty marines and Lascannons.

Leviathan Dreadnought and Custodes are here to be the distraction carnifex's and are durable enough I think to take it. The Custodes are my main objective grabbers along with the Razorback but can also go pack a punch where needed ofc.

Sorry to the input previously from anyone suggesting I go for Predator but I just can't get on board with degrading low firing output weapon platforms.

Sooo this looking better then?

My only beef is the idea of using 160pt single models which do most of their damage in CQC as objective holders.

I prefer my leviathans with 2x cannons or cannon+grav flux but if you get mileage out of the CCWs then more power to you.

I think it would be better to run the LRC up flanked by the custodes. Have the razor drop off shooty crusader squad and have the leviathan hold the middle of the board.

Scouts screen from alpha, your laz-razor set-up fire base at objective supported by crusader squad.

The quad heavy bolter seems like the odd man out, maybe replace that with a dev squad (ML + HB for strats but they'll stay cheap for backfield objective camping?) to just fill out the detachment, maybe some assault hellblasters to move along with the leviathan? I feel the quad bolter will get left behind with the leviathan needing to move up to center board (24" range)

bananathug wrote:
My only beef is the idea of using 160pt single models which do most of their damage in CQC as objective holders.

I prefer my leviathans with 2x cannons or cannon+grav flux but if you get mileage out of the CCWs then more power to you.

I think it would be better to run the LRC up flanked by the custodes. Have the razor drop off shooty crusader squad and have the leviathan hold the middle of the board.

Scouts screen from alpha, your laz-razor set-up fire base at objective supported by crusader squad.

The quad heavy bolter seems like the odd man out, maybe replace that with a dev squad (ML + HB for strats but they'll stay cheap for backfield objective camping?) to just fill out the detachment, maybe some assault hellblasters to move along with the leviathan? I feel the quad bolter will get left behind with the leviathan needing to move up to center board (24" range)

Maybe I just go for pure killing then, straight and direct?

2 Squads of choppy Crusaders in the LRC with Grimaldus, Helbrecht and Lieutenant with 2 squads of scouts outside screening to begin with. The Razorback + LRC up the gut with the Shield Captains on bikes flanking. A Sternguard Vet squad + Emperors Champ in the Razorback providing support fire and Terminators TH + SS deepstrike along with a Vexilus Praetor in Terminator armour giving everyone within 9" a +5 invul (mainly to the crusaders and Sternguard once deployed).

Not super versatile but could be brutal

Best tactic, kill them until they are dead...

And then burn them with fire.

Please let me know how it plays as I just picked up a couple bike custodes myself