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 DemetriDominov wrote:
Questions:

Why is the title "The lack of normal women in the hobby?"

Are we assuming that women in the hobby aren't normal?

Are the men normal?

Are we normal?

Question:

Why has it taken 25 pages and 3 weeks to notice this?

Because it is not remotely pertitent and misinterpretation of the OP's query.


We are discussing in universe depictions of male and female characters. We are not discussing the men and women who play 40k. There is another thread for that.

Oh, well don't mind me Amaya for bringing in my argument from my other thread in what constitutes a normal woman/ man/person.

So what defines a normal woman? (In literature or otherwise)

The answer is incredibly obvious. Read the thread.

Read the thread and find out.

It's been discussed pretty extendively from the op on to the first few pages in.

So why does the majority of the community disagree that there are normal women in the hobby?

Reason: There are anecdotal examples aplenty from Gants Ghosts, Caphis Cain, to the lieutenant on Graia (the only woman in the game), to Inquisitor Adrastia (also the only human woman in the game), but let's not forget the SoB in Soulstorm either. The books Faith and Fire, Enforcer, and (I can't remember the third book) all have female main characters. So there are plenty of examples we can glean from.

But again, all these are hero's, the top 1% of all the other almost 30 years of storytelling and hobbying. I'm not going to say that the stories (or even the armies) be divided into equal parts, women, men, blacks, hispanics, children to all suffer the grimdark future in some dystopic equal-topia, but rather allow the hobby itself to reflect the desperation the IoM feels on a daily basis.

Make the SoB a real army. Expand the IG range to include female models. Have women actually die in the video games - not just the novels. Allow others to fall into corruption like their men counterparts. All of these things would add to the hobby, not detract from it.

But most of all, consider the female characters to be people first and foremost.

If they added female models that would make for a larger number kit sales. Mostly because you would have to buy double the number of boxes to have an army entirely composed of male models. Female models for that matter too. It's not necessary but would make gw more money in the long run.
Personally I don't mind female models (infinity for example) but I don't think that Warhammer 40,000 calls for such a plush interpretation of such a backwards, gritty, xenophobic setting to include female models in every army. Sisters of battle, ok yes they fit the game perfectly, in fact I wish they would really fix their "codex" and we would see more of them but that calls for a whole new model range with grittier scar covered head shaved eye patch sporting prayer branded amazons. And dark eldar is full of badass female models.

Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.

Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.

 Melissia wrote:
Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.

Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.

That's why we don't see any Cadian women!!! None of them are scared of Commissars.

Just going to throw this out there, but the lore of my army has a draft rate over 700 times that of Cadia.

I need female models to represent this. Period.

I, like many other hobyists would rather not have to buy SoB blister packs just to decapitate and scavenge through other packs and non-gw merchandise to extract them.

 Melissia wrote:
Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.

Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.

Agree with all this when it comes to the models and gak. But fluff makes it clear that women are included in all institutions of the Imperium, from the Administratum, to the Imperial guard, to the ship captains, to the Arbites, to the Navigators, to the Astropaths, etc.

Individual planets may have discrimination against women, its possible. But the IOM doesn't care.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Basically what is being asked for is a greater representation of women in the Imperial Guard, and the Imperial bureaucracy, etc. More psykers, more soldiers, more representation of the Sisters, and so on.

Keep in mind, in Cadia, the recruitment rate is the same as the birth rate-- no exclusion of the women. Most other worlds are the same. Drafts grab people regardless of gender, they just need bodies that can point a lasgun and be afraid of the commissar enough that they'll shoot the enemy instead of running away.

Agree with all this when it comes to the models and gak. But fluff makes it clear that women are included in all institutions of the Imperium, from the Administratum, to the Imperial guard, to the ship captains, to the Arbites, to the Navigators, to the Astropaths, etc.

Individual planets may have discrimination against women, its possible. But the IOM doesn't care.

I know, and I've said that, as have many others.

It's just that Black Library ignores this fact, to its own detriment.

I would actually admit that Black Library still does a better job than the GW studio themselves when it comes to this detail. Although of course this is always down to the individual authors - given that unlike with the design studio and its core team, the novels are written by loads of individuals with a much higher frequency, we're bound to find more variation between them, and sometimes this may include the presence and role of women. ADB talked about this once, I believe, and is sometimes mentioned as one of the few trailblazers concerning the "normalisation" of the role of female characters in this franchise.

BlaxicanX wrote:OR
What is perceived to be miracles is actually just them being a bunch of badasses, and the "faith" aspect is a placebo.
I prefer #2 because it makes them look better and is also more logical, personally.

Isn't that exactly what I posted? Guess we had a misunderstanding, as that mirrors my own thoughts precisely.

The placebo comparison is quite accurate, given that what is called "placebo effect" is a psychological thing that results in the person behaving differently and even sporting an altered range of physical abilities. That doesn't make the placebo any less important, though.

Melissia wrote:There's also a third explanation, that I don't like much. Namely, that their strong faith effects the warp, and that in turn effects realspace. That theory has been popular amongst chaos players, but it has long been contradicted by GW which has stated that the powers aren't psychic or warp-based in nature.

Indeed, the original Shield of Faith made them resist even benevolent psychic effects from allied Psykers - and the Inquisitor rules for Sororitas clearly points out that AoF are not psychic in nature and as such cannot be dispelled/countered.

I'm still preferring the effects of "faith as emotion" as an explanation for the Living Saints, though - given that the only alternatives would be the existence of actual divine magic, or simply dismissing Living Saints entirely and declaring the concept propaganda/superstition.

mattyrm wrote:Superman and Spiderman and Batman would suck if they had pot bellies and skinny arms..

I dunno, I thought part of the Spiderman charm was that he was a college nerd. Which is why I thought Maguire was way more suited to be his actor than the new guy.

Maybe that's just me, although I definitively agree about Conan etc.

One theory is that Living Saints are probably the Emperor's answer to daemons-- similar enough for a comparison, but quite different in execution. For example, no warp instability. But they are granted a measure of the Emperor's power and presence.

I'm not certain on the specifics myself, I dunno if I agree with that kind of theory, but I DO think that hte Emperor has something to do with it, based off of some side bits on the Shaman origin for the Emperor (namely, about how his psychic power was somehow "different" from other psykers).

there are LOTS of female models, want female IG?

necro munda has a whole female gang with ladies kitted out ready for combat in the IG

and thats just without conversions, lots of models like sisters of sigmar ect that can be modded to fit any army

is there a 50/50 split of models? heck no... but there isnt just one or two token models, and for every DD cup female model there are 3 steroid abusing male models

mysogynistic implies hatred of women as a cultural norm, something NOT evident in 40k lore, models, or in any table top

You mean these?
https://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1120109

Hardly fitting for the IG (though they're decent models.... if a bit, um, busty... for Inquisitorial retinues and other ad-hoc troops). If you want to fit these models into, say, a Cadian regiment, you've got a lotta work ahead of you.

Unless someone wants to make a Xenonian regiment.

But yeah, standard IG is Cadians, and it should have a bunch of Lt-Mira-lookalikes strewn in, especially given that the fluff already points out they're supposed to be there.

Sidenote: I wonder if "Xenonian" is connected to "Xenan", the homeworld of the Last Chancers' Warrior Woman.

 Lynata wrote:

But yeah, standard IG is Cadians,

There supposed to be standard. A standard that is not followed much from what I see .

Oh, I'm referring solely to their role in the franchise and how GW markets and sells them compared to other regiments.

If you mean the fluff, I see Cadians as more like an ideal to strive for rather than being the norm.

 Lynata wrote:
Oh, I'm referring solely to their role in the franchise and how GW markets and sells them compared to other regiments.

If you mean the fluff, I see Cadians as more like an ideal to strive for rather than being the norm.

I can say that I agree with this post by Lyanat a 100%. Finally some progress !

Hey Lynata, have you checked out my DAoT tech source thread?

I did now!

Just don't think I can contribute anything ... the Dark Age of Technology isn't really my specialty, and the few things that sprang to mind (Graviton Gun, Vortex Grenade) you've already listed. That aside I could only think of Terraforming which seems to have become something of a lost art by "now" (M41), too.

Maybe I recall some more stuff later, but I don't think I've read much sources where it (DAoT stuff) would show up.

Interesting thread, by the way - will revisit it and take some more time to read the descriptions later as it seems to be inspiring stuff.

 Lynata wrote:
I did now!

Maybe I recall some more stuff later, but I don't think I've read much sources where it (DAoT stuff) would show up.

Any posts by any dakka member will be welcome as long as it fits the criteria I have posted in the thread.

Interesting thread, by the way - will revisit it and take some more time to read the descriptions later as it seems to be inspiring stuff.

Thanks .

 Super Ready wrote:
I think a lot of people get suckered into their own trap with this one. Space Marines are also sexually inactive and monastic in EXACTLY the same way that Sisters are... and I'm not seeing the chastity belt thing if I'm honest. So why is it ok for Marines to be repressed and not Sisters? Sexist. (I jest of course.)

Nope. In fact all the augmentation in the MEHREENZ bodies increase the production of testosterone. Plus, they actually CAN have sex. Simply the majority of them won't. Look at the Space Wolves, sometimes some novel has hints.
"They don't care, they drink, they fight, they f**k".

The 'Wolves have to take drugs in order to suppress their toxin-binding nanotech in order to get drunk. Whether they maintain relations after becoming Marines is debatable, as the average citizens of Fenris cannot reach the Fang, and Fenris has no permanent cities.

Sisters *can* have sex, too. They're not physically incapable of the act. They simply *don't*, as they are both chaste and celibate, as dictated by the strictures of their various Orders ("cleave only unto the God-Emperor")

 Psienesis wrote:

Sisters *can* have sex, too. They're not physically incapable of the act. They simply *don't*, as they are both chaste and celibate, as dictated by the strictures of their various Orders ("cleave only unto the God-Emperor")

Where is it stated that Sisters are celibate?

It isn't stated anywhere. It's just assumed because they're nuns.

What people forget is that they are the daughters of the Emperor, unlike real life nuns who consider themselves to be married to God (in a purely abstract fashion).

The line "cleave only unto the God-Emperor", oft-quoted in their Codices and other publications, is a 40K version of a similar statement found in the Bible. Basically, the only person they'd sleep with is the God-Emperor ("cleave to" means "remain sexually faithful with")

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/cleave+to

.. if you want some reference.

Gross.

<shrugs>

Religion. It's weird like that.