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Yeah I thought we weren't supposed to wait and see because guard were op right out the gate.

Can we wait and see yet?

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it funny that the imperial guard cheesepologists don't understand the concept of a sample size. One tournament means nothing. A feth ton of tournament data does.

Seeing as you're such a fan of data, Blood of Kittens has a list of major tournaments and their factions who won.

Marines and Guard have virtually the same number of total wins in top 3.

So are Marines equally cheesy? Would that make you a cheesepologist too?

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it funny that the imperial guard cheesepologists don't understand the concept of a sample size. One tournament means nothing. A feth ton of tournament data does

Except that one tournament is more data than you have for asserting they're broken.

Darkagl1 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it funny that the imperial guard cheesepologists don't understand the concept of a sample size. One tournament means nothing. A feth ton of tournament data does

Except that one tournament is more data than you have for asserting they're broken.

It's unbelievalbe, and I've been arguing I think we are OP. I'd like for someone to explain to me how it's perfectly logical to make conclusions based on no data but completely illogical to make conclusions based on a small amount of data.

Has anyone else noticed this "problem" is only a 911 emergency "the game is broke!" problem on the internet? I made a post about it on our local 40k facebook page and the responses amounted to "enjoy it while it lasts."

 crimsondave wrote:

It's unbelievalbe, and I've been arguing I think we are OP. I'd like for someone to explain to me how it's perfectly logical to make conclusions based on no data but completely illogical to make conclusions based on a small amount of data.

Has anyone else noticed this "problem" is only a 911 emergency "the game is broke!" problem on the internet? I made a post about it on our local 40k facebook page and the responses amounted to "enjoy it while it lasts."

To be honest, I was pretty skeptical before the codex dropped, but now I'm willing to concede it's on the high side of fair. I don't know if I'd say unbeatable because I haven't had a chance to feel like I've properly tested it. I've told my friends I play with to tack another 25% more points on their side when I'm playing guard because I want to see how that rides out, but I haven't had time to play again yet. What I really really need is a seasoned guard player in my area to stomp on my face when I play SM, but I'm the only one I know of.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it funny that the imperial guard cheesepologists don't understand the concept of a sample size. One tournament means nothing. A feth ton of tournament data does.

Seeing as you're such a fan of data, Blood of Kittens has a list of major tournaments and their factions who won.

Marines and Guard have virtually the same number of total wins in top 3.

So are Marines equally cheesy? Would that make you a cheesepologist too?

Marines are one of the very top tier armies right now no doubt. But most of that is fixed by removing/not picking Gman.
The issue with Guard goes much deeper and runs through the entire codex. Most of it is simply to cheap for what it does.

 crimsondave wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I find it funny that the imperial guard cheesepologists don't understand the concept of a sample size. One tournament means nothing. A feth ton of tournament data does

Except that one tournament is more data than you have for asserting they're broken.

It's unbelievalbe, and I've been arguing I think we are OP. I'd like for someone to explain to me how it's perfectly logical to make conclusions based on no data but completely illogical to make conclusions based on a small amount of data.

Has anyone else noticed this "problem" is only a 911 emergency "the game is broke!" problem on the internet? I made a post about it on our local 40k facebook page and the responses amounted to "enjoy it while it lasts."

I wish I knew. I mean could AM end up being a problem sure. They certainly seem to have more raw power than the other codices though certain marine builds are definitely strong. That said we're at the beginning of a new edition with only 6 codices out so how bad can it really be? What irks me is the certainty that people are proclaiming that OP and then as soon as something doesn't match their narrative suddenly it somehow doesn't matter because sample size. I'm not sure of anyone in this thread asserting AM aren't OP, it's people saying wait and see vs those who are saying the world will literally end if we don't receive immediate hotfix nerfs.

I'm not expecting good game balance until the 2nd chapter approved. Getting bent out of shape now is premature. I would bet that all of the codexes released this year were already printed by launch of 8th, and have not taken player feedback into account.

I don't have an opinion on that. But I am intrigured... what would you expect was the difference in time then between the codex printings and the index printings?

6 to 9 months at least.

 daedalus wrote:
I don't have an opinion on that. But I am intrigured... what would you expect was the difference in time then between the codex printings and the index printings?

Supposedly they run something like 6 months out so last version of indices had to be locked in like January and Marines and chaos maybe Feb. Admech march. And so on.

Not entirely, a hardback has to be done at least six months out because they're printed outscourced in China whereas a softcover can be printed by "local" partners faster (in a span of weeks last I heard) so the time is reduced somewhat.

Note this only applies to external time, any internal production time is unaffected.

Earth127 wrote:
Not entirely, a hardback has to be done at least six months out because they're printed outscourced in China whereas a softcover can be printed by "local" partners faster (in a span of weeks last I heard) so the time is reduced somewhat.

Note this only applies to external time, any internal production time is unaffected.

GW prints both its hard and soft backs in the UK.

Earth127 wrote:
Not entirely, a hardback has to be done at least six months out because they're printed outscourced in China whereas a softcover can be printed by "local" partners faster (in a span of weeks last I heard) so the time is reduced somewhat.

Note this only applies to external time, any internal production time is unaffected.

That may be possible, but my understanding is GWs lead time is like 6 months. Might be better for everyone if they forced that down, but idk.

well, coming from somebody that just played guard with a mixed Eldar/DE list and going over the game with my opponent. There was nothing I could've done to win, no change of strategy or unit could put out anywhere near enough shots. I mean hell, Pask gets 50 shots by himself. I would need to bring 17 jetbikes with shuriken cannons to equal that amount of shots that he has in 1 tank, let alone he brings 124 bodies to a 2000pt match. I just dont know what else i couldve done to even stand a chance.

What did Pask actually do with those 50 shots each turn though?

 supreme overlord wrote:
well, coming from somebody that just played guard with a mixed Eldar/DE list and going over the game with my opponent. There was nothing I could've done to win, no change of strategy or unit could put out anywhere near enough shots. I mean hell, Pask gets 50 shots by himself. I would need to bring 17 jetbikes with shuriken cannons to equal that amount of shots that he has in 1 tank, let alone he brings 124 bodies to a 2000pt match. I just dont know what else i couldve done to even stand a chance.

What were the lists involved? Mission? I've played a bunch of mixed eldar and several games vs guard since 8th dropped, I'd be happy to talk through it in pms if you want advice.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
I'm not expecting good game balance until the 2nd chapter approved. Getting bent out of shape now is premature. I would bet that all of the codexes released this year were already printed by launch of 8th, and have not taken player feedback into account.

I'm pretty much with you.

Another unfortunate trend GW are using seems to be the use of Stratagems to give armies their abilities and strengths. The problem is that IG (I'll always call them IG, even though I know they aren't anymore) can easily get 20+ CPs to start the game with, where an army like Eldar would be lucky to get 9.

Today's stratagem for Eldar was a 3CP one, where if an Avatar of Khaine dies in the fight phase (and only in the fight phase), you can spend 3CP to resurrect him with D6 wounds left.

I'll let you absorb that for a moment. 3CP, so between a third and a half of your army's total CP, to bring the Avatar back with on average 3-4 wounds. Could be just 1 wound. If you're lucky, you might get 6.

Lets compare this to Celestine, who is pretty much the IG Avatar. For the same points, you get Celestine and her two bodyguards. They're much faster, have much better saves, they're less tough sure but their saves make up for it. Still pretty powerful in combat, and have Acts of Faith to make them faster/deadlier.

And Celestine gets to resurrect, for zero CP cost, from dying in any phase at all, and always goes to full 7 wounds. Basically, for free.

I mean sure, you could say she pays for it in her points cost... but the Avatar costs 100 points more. To make them the same cost, Celestine gets two bodyguard, putting her up to 11+ wounds (much more really, as they both heal each turn and can resurrect), and yet is still non-targetable because -technically- she is a lowly 7 wound character.

Even if they made Celestines resurrection a 3CP stratagem, it would still be really good, because Guard can burn through CP for days.


This is just a fast and dirty comparison, there's several things wrong with it, but its just to point out that GW seem to be trying to find balance between armies by using stratagems to make up for weaknesses or differences in ability. Problem is, IG are the only army who can actually use stratagems in this way. For everyone else, a stratagem is a "Use this once in one turn and then you have ran out of CPs for the rest of the game".

Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

Its weird that crusaders are in though. Did not see that coming.

It's also kind of unreasonable to attempt to make any sort of meaningful statement about the availability of command points when you know troops are getting cheaper, which will generally make it more affordable to get command points or the point cost of a model, when you don't know what the point cost is actually going to be yet.

 Trickstick wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Not entirely, a hardback has to be done at least six months out because they're printed outscourced in China whereas a softcover can be printed by "local" partners faster (in a span of weeks last I heard) so the time is reduced somewhat.

Note this only applies to external time, any internal production time is unaffected.

GW prints both its hard and soft backs in the UK.

The codexes I own say China on the back cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

Its weird that crusaders are in though. Did not see that coming.

I believe they are from the Spanish branch of the Inquisition.

There's a lot of things wrong with a game state where GW considers it "fair" to require a tzeentch daemon player to have to pay full points for 20 blue horrors who only appear on the board when and where a unit of 10 pink horrors die, and who then have to immediately make a 10-casualty LD check on LD7. Heck, you even have to pay full 30 something points for a spawn if you want to use the extra effect of a weapon that might turn someone into one on a 6 while finishing them of...

Then they turn around and say that it's "fair" to have Guilliman and Celestine, 200+ point characters, resurrect for free just because. In matched play, if you want to use Celestine's resurrection ability, you should have to pay reinforcement points for a second Celestine.

Though it's a bit weird to call Celestine the IG avatar. Wouldn't that be Yarrick? LD boosting aura, offensive aura, big beatstick, actually in the same book? Wouldn't it be equally fair to say that a Farseer with Doom is a Dark Eldar psyker because they benefit from it?

I'm also curious about the real difference between the sizes of typical Brigades people get. Sure, IG can take super el-cheapo options in every slot to pump up command points, but that typically leads to units that are purely for tax purposes, and I much more frequently field stuff with a few upgrades, while with Eldar I will often run stock or close to stock squads. Looking at my two TAC lists with Brigades, my Eldar Brigade is only 250 points more than my Astra Militarum Brigade, and I bring the same number of command points total (Brigade+Spearhead for AM and Brigade+Allied Outrider detachment for Eldar).

The Eldar troop choices are usually about 1.5x as expensive as the AM ones, but the Eldar make up for it with good cheap HS options relative to the AM ones. My War Walkers and Vauls Wrath batteries are about 50-60 points cheaper than the manticores and leman russes I have in my AM brigade.

Do people actually run stuff like 6 naked infantry squads, 3 commissars, 3 mortar hwts, 3 scout sents with multilasers, 3 company commanders naked? How does that work? that seems super tax-y to me, and I feel like I wouldn't have anything decent to spend the CPs on.

 Crimson Devil wrote:


I believe they are from the Spanish branch of the Inquisition.

I always thought the "exalt" thing in Dakka was dumb. Having that been said, congrats on making the first comment to which I ever intentionally clicked that link.

Well done!

 Crimson Devil wrote:



I believe they are from the Spanish branch of the Inquisition.

Take your exalt.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
The codexes I own say China on the back cover.

Fair enough, mine all say UK.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

Good point, I think Imperial Soup is more of the problem and AM is a powerful component of that. I think pure AM is not nearly as problematic as the tendency to cherry pick the best units from every Imperial book without a penalty.

Niiru wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Lets take a moment and acknowledge that Celestine is not in fact an Imperial Guard unit, and makes no appearance in the IG codex, and generally cant be the target of IG Stratagems.

I would take this as a good counter-arguement, if Celestine didn't keep appearing in IG-dominant lists. As it is, she's as much an IG member as Assassins are at this point. And probably used even more frequently.

So, just like Assassins, she isn't an IG member?

Doesn't have the keyword, can't use the stratagems, turns off doctrines if they share a detachment, can't benefit from their psychic powers, can't board their transports?

Genestealer Cultists are closer to being members of the imperial guard than either assassins or celestine.

If you open up the rulebook, you'll see there's rules for "faction keywords" and how they work.