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Short question, but im curious. Now that Skull Cannons are 100 a pop, there is no reason for me to (as a khorne player) need to take it for an artillery piece, heck even as a pseudo-melee tank, the skull cannon is STILL better now with the price drop and cannon buff.

And if you want to go the other way, a Defiler no matter HOW you build it, has more guns, and better abilities. I would MUCH rather have smoke and regeneration rather than one of the daemon alligences...For 30 points MINIMUM cheaper.

Because it looks cool?

I am going to start off saying I am not advocating a soul grinder gets use one way or the other.

For you there doesn't sound like there is much of a reason. The advantage that khorn gives a soul grinder is not as useful as other units.

But a soul grinder vs defiler can have some points in its favor depending on the God. Nurgle gives the grinder a 5+++ fnp which can be big. Nurgle can also heal it d3 wounds with fleshy abundance. Tzeench gives it a 4++ save by default, with boon of change granting it additional bonuses that can make it better as well. Flickering flames can make it quite deadly, though conventional wisdom says that's ment for 30 pink horror teams.

Heck even slaannesh can give it..... Yeah slaanesh doesn't do anything for a soul grinder.

So it depends on what you have available to you, what your army is, and what you really need.

meleti wrote:
Because it looks cool?

Personal preference here but I think it looks awful. Each to their own.

Get a Kytan if going for aesthetics.

I just proxy mine as a defiler now. Ran one last night for 167 points - so cheap compared to the Soul Grinder.

Sad really, but there you go.

Are defilers eventually worth it ?

 godardc wrote:
Are defilers eventually worth it ?

I've played Defilers a few times now (not in tournaments), and it's always done at least some form of work. You can either build it for close range or long range, close range hovering around 170 while long range hovers around 200. Either way, it's a self-protecting artillery piece with melee capabilities, so it really only needs a baby sitter in some situations. You can for sure make the arguement that non-Daemon Engine stuff like Predators and the like do its job just a bit better, but the stratagem for 1 CP that lets you reroll all hits and wounds in the shooting or fighting phase really make this thing worth it.

So all in all...I'd give it a 7/10? Not a must have, but it won't drag your list down.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I am going to start off saying I am not advocating a soul grinder gets use one way or the other.

For you there doesn't sound like there is much of a reason. The advantage that khorn gives a soul grinder is not as useful as other units.

But a soul grinder vs defiler can have some points in its favor depending on the God. Nurgle gives the grinder a 5+++ fnp which can be big. Nurgle can also heal it d3 wounds with fleshy abundance. Tzeench gives it a 4++ save by default, with boon of change granting it additional bonuses that can make it better as well. Flickering flames can make it quite deadly, though conventional wisdom says that's ment for 30 pink horror teams.

Heck even slaannesh can give it..... Yeah slaanesh doesn't do anything for a soul grinder.

So it depends on what you have available to you, what your army is, and what you really need.

Good point on Nurgle, I don't agree that Tzeetch makes it worth, but a 5++ FNP is for sure totally worth it.

So Defilers and Soul Grinders have switched this addition, that's good to know.

At the bare minimum my Defiler is a bullet magnet, I would rather that be shot at other than my more important stuff. It took an absolute pasting last game I played. Didn't dish out much damage but that was more down to me choosing the wrong targets.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
So Defilers and Soul Grinders have switched this addition, that's good to know.

At the bare minimum my Defiler is a bullet magnet, I would rather that be shot at other than my more important stuff. It took an absolute pasting last game I played. Didn't dish out much damage but that was more down to me choosing the wrong targets.

Oh yeah, make no mistake. You can explain to your opponent 10 minutes before the match that the Defiler is meant to be a bullet sponge, and he will STILL focus way too much on it. It has a very good case of big model syndrome. It looks far scarier than it actually is.

I'm not a fan personally, but I'd point out that the tzneetchian soul grinder not only has the nice 4++, but also can be buffed with the flickering flame spell. That can make a fairly big difference given toughness 7/8 isn't uncommon for what a soul grinder wants to target.

 godardc wrote:
Are defilers eventually worth it ?

I feel comfortable claiming that it's currerntly most efficient in a Thousand Sons list.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Are defilers eventually worth it ?

I feel comfortable claiming that it's currerntly most efficient in a Thousand Sons list.

+1 this, mine is doing overtime work thanks to its ability to be buffed to the moon.

I think soul grinders in a pure deamon list have their place, mostly with nurgle, but if you soup like most do then it's just not as good as the defiler from tsons.

If you play any other csm faction then they just have better options.

 godardc wrote:
Are defilers eventually worth it ?

Defilers are awesome under 8th edition. Previously mine spent years gathering dust on a shelf. Now they are more than worthwhile.

As for Soul Grinders, I don't have a lot of experience with them but I want one for my Nurgle Daemon allied detachment just because.

1 Soul Grinder is 235pts
1 Defiler with Twin Lascannon, Havoc Launcher, and Combi-Flamer, is 212pts

They have almost identical stat lines with the Soul Grinder having +1 attack and the Defiler +1 LD. The Defiler also gets Infernal Regeneration. Phlegm is half the range of a Battlecannon but does more damage on average. Which is more of a tradeoff as the Soul Grinder is outranged by lascannons/missile launchers.


If you drop the combi-flamer you can actually get a spearhead detachment with a Chaos Lord babysitter for less than 3 Soul Grinders.

Chaos Daemons can just take allied CSM havocs, predators, or other ranged anti-tank options. The Soul Grinder isn't a compelling option at its current point value being 40-50pts over-valued.

Well their base stats are the same except the soul grinder has 5 attacks not 4.

Weaponwise:
Phlegm bombardment is (imo) better than the battle cannon. a lot less less range but guaranteed 3 dmg

Harverster cannon and Reaper are the same except reaper has 4 shots not 3 but the HC does d3 dmg not 1 so .... meh?

Claws are identical

Defiler scourge is nice but SG has the warpclaw option potentially pumping out 10 attacks...

Other stuff:
Defiler gains 1w back a turn but the SG has the option to be nurgle whch gives it ignoring wounds on a 5+ which is better (again imo). You'd literally always go nurgle so meh to other options but they are there if you want them.

Defiler has smoke... which is actually useful sometimes

Trickery SG:
SG can be s9 near a herald
Nurgle strat to restore d3 wounds
Nurgle power to restore d3 wounds (double up with above 2d3 wounds)
Strat to deep strike it!
Strat to buff 5++ to 4++ with 5+ fnp with nurgle
They can be summoned (useful if you dont want it shot turn 1)
Nurgle power to give -1 to hit
Other double damage nurgle power can be horrible with loci:
10 attacks s9 with +1 to wound, -2 any wound rolls of 6 = d3 x 2 + 1 dmg or normally d3+1 dmg

Trickery defiler:
Strat to move and fire heavy weps without -1
Daemonforge - re-roll to hit + wound in a phase (stand out good strat)
Same -1 to hit nurglw power, slannesh power for the 5++ is also decent

pts:
SG - 235
Comes with PB, HC, claw, warclaw or sword

Defiler - 167 (best loadout imo)
BC, Claw, Scourge, RAC


So in my opinion the SG is actually better as it has more versatility and its weapons are probably better but is it 70ish pts better? not to sure... might hinge on skill of uses/synergy

So a warp claw soul grinder of khorne will have... 12 attacks on the charge?

That is pretty cool, but yeah, not the best thing in the world.

yep

you could also blow a couple of cmd pts if a char is nearby to:
re-roll those attacks

or burn 3 to fight again for 24 attacks XD

can also rock a DP to re-roll 1's or have the WL trait to re-roll 1's

or pump it up further with the crimson crown on a char, so any 6's to wound give you another attack.

so 3cp and a nearby DP with that and you have 24 attacks re-rolling 1's to hit and extra attacks on a 6 to wound (so more like 32ish attacks since it says you attack with the weapons so 4 extra attacks x2 because you make 2 hit rolls with each attack with hte weapon)
you'd pretty much kill a landraider in one charge or a whole unit of 10 primaris marines

not forgetting you can re-roll the charge with the loci and the option to deepstrike is there to pull this off turn 1... its 5CP and careful character moving but with 30pt horror units daemons can go in with a healthy amount of CP. If you wanna save CP you can always summon in the SG as a very nasty mid game suprise

When you need someone to grind some souls for you, look no further.

I have been thinking of deep striking a SG for two CP. then it is in the opponents face. But then again flamers are better and only one CP. anyone try deep strike a SG?

 vaklor4 wrote:
Short question, but im curious. Now that Skull Cannons are 100 a pop, there is no reason for me to (as a khorne player) need to take it for an artillery piece, heck even as a pseudo-melee tank, the skull cannon is STILL better now with the price drop and cannon buff.

And if you want to go the other way, a Defiler no matter HOW you build it, has more guns, and better abilities. I would MUCH rather have smoke and regeneration rather than one of the daemon alligences...For 30 points MINIMUM cheaper.

Rule of Cool?

Honestly I don't know. It does feel like the Khorne varient is a bit off compared to the other options Khorne has.

I played my Soul Grinder today with the Mark of Tzeentch and as soon as the game started I regretted it. I really am thinking that Mark of Nurgle is the way to go with these guys. I just wish we had a better way to boost their firing capabilities like Tsons can do with their Defilers.

While I still think the deffy is over priced I think it is a good unit. I find building it for melee and running up the board makes it shine. It punchs way above its weight with Four STR 16 (18 with allied herald in proximity) AP -3 and D6 damage attacks gives it the ability with good roles to wipe out most non super heavies in one round of CC. Now how to arm them is up for grabs and personal choice. With its major weakness being a 4 WS/BS degrading I feel it makes use of the heavy flamer option very well and increases its threat range past vehicle's and adds anti infantry. I tend to not run las cannons again because of the 4 BS degrading and the tacked on -1 to hit from movement makes it a dicey option at best. You have a few sources of re-rolls that can help this but the CP/lord can be of better use elsewhere imho. So take the HB simply because you have to and further adding anti infantry firepower. I myself have run it with a add'ed combi-flamer and think it is worth the points.

As for a soul grinder....meh. If you want to have less punch and more defense then its a good idea to take this over a defiler. Tz and Nurgle being the operative choices.

So, in closing. If you want a form of mid cost bullet magnet and not caring if it sees CC then the soul grinder is the better choice. Once CC is reached the defiler is a far superior option. Savvy players will simply ignore your soul grinder or tar pit it the entire game. The defiler can also be tarpitted but its over watch with its twin heavy flamer and its combi flamer leave charging it with cheap chaff not so much of a option (good rolls also help, as always). I run a defiler with my Night Lords and it has almost always made its points back or has been a successful distraction.

Also with the Defiler I see around my area that most people play it as a artillery piece and imho that is a BIG waste of points. Battle Cannons are not even that good (chaos version) and once you get done paying for the twin lascannon and havoc launcher you could have taken a far better AT option in its place. I see the defiler as a melee engine. The guns are a trap. Think of the battle cannon as icing. Fire it every round and pray for 5s (also do not target anything that gives you a negative to hit, like alpha legion infantry). I find that more often than not I will land at least one battle cannon shot per game and at times ive landed up to three. It is a bonus.

While I know this post as been almost all about defilers I do hope it was some help in determining your choice.

At least Defilers have smoke launchers so they can be slightly harder to kill while scuttling across the field turn 1 to be a melee beatstick. Grinders lack this ability and I usually feel obliged not to advance in order to provide mediocre shooting while moving towards melee.

I think the model looks really good though. Mine is modelled as Slaanesh, so even more useless than the rest rules wise...

Mark.