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Hey guys. Now that there's been an officially licensed dice roller, are there rules or supplements that allow the use of this app for events? I can't seem to find anything. This is more for a debate rather than myself actually using it. Thanks!

mecra wrote:
Hey guys. Now that there's been an officially licensed dice roller, are there rules or supplements that allow the use of this app for events? I can't seem to find anything. This is more for a debate rather than myself actually using it. Thanks!

Where is this dice roller? And tournaments can do whatever the hell they want. The rules tell you to use six sided dice, you're implicitly forbidden from using anything other than dice, RaW.

Assault Dice.

Still uses scatter dice... Seems legit.

Last updated March 4, 2016...

Truth. I'm more for whether or not there's anything official regarding using apps for dice rolling.

mecra wrote:
Truth. I'm more for whether or not there's anything official regarding using apps for dice rolling.

There isn't. The rules tell you to use dice and nothing else.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mecra wrote:
Truth. I'm more for whether or not there's anything official regarding using apps for dice rolling.

There isn't. The rules tell you to use dice and nothing else.

Purely for discussion's sake, explain to me how "Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice" (under Tools of War) cannot refer to digital dice. A digital die is still a six-sided die and it is rolled by the machine, usually graphically as it is animated bouncing around. RAW, I don't think there is any problem with dice apps.

Audustum wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mecra wrote:
Truth. I'm more for whether or not there's anything official regarding using apps for dice rolling.

There isn't. The rules tell you to use dice and nothing else.

Purely for discussion's sake, explain to me how "Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice" (under Tools of War) cannot refer to digital dice. A digital die is still a six-sided die and it is rolled by the machine, usually graphically as it is animated bouncing around. RAW, I don't think there is any problem with dice apps.

Electrons and a Psudo-Random algorithm is not a Six Sided Dice. A representation of a six sided dice is NOT a six sided dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mecra wrote:
Truth. I'm more for whether or not there's anything official regarding using apps for dice rolling.

There isn't. The rules tell you to use dice and nothing else.

Purely for discussion's sake, explain to me how "Warhammer 40,000 uses six-sided dice" (under Tools of War) cannot refer to digital dice. A digital die is still a six-sided die and it is rolled by the machine, usually graphically as it is animated bouncing around. RAW, I don't think there is any problem with dice apps.

Electrons and a Psudo-Random algorithm is not a Six Sided Dice. A representation of a six sided dice is NOT a six sided dice.

This strikes me as a bit pre-21st century thinking. A die is "a small cube with each side having a different number of spots on it". Well, in Unity/Maya/whatever tool you want I can definitely make a cube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCQlQcz9S0E

https://docs.unity3d.com/ScriptReference/GameObject.CreatePrimitive.html

I can then put spots on this cube (hopefully no need for link here).

I then import or create a physics engine, like Bullet here:

http://bulletphysics.org/wordpress/

Then I grab my dice objects and hurl them, letting the physics engine dump them out. Where does this violate the definition? Are computer cubes not cubes? I don't see why they wouldn't be.

Basically, I don't see a requisite for 'meat-space' here. A cube's a cube.

Audustum wrote:
Are computer cubes not cubes? I don't see why they wouldn't be.

They are virtual representations of Cubes. Might as well say a photo of a banana on my phone is a banana, so I can legally only feed my child pictures of bananas and it's not my fault when they die.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Are computer cubes not cubes? I don't see why they wouldn't be.

They are virtual representations of Cubes. Might as well say a photo of a banana on my phone is a banana, so I can legally only feed my child pictures of bananas and it's not my fault when they die.

I think the child might die from you physically trying to feed the phone which has the banana before he/she dies from starvation...

This should really be in general discussion as it doesn't truly pertain to the rules, but - if you are worried about potential rigging on the app, who is to say that you're not using a loaded dice? Will these need to be approved by the TO's? (Although I think i'd be cool if you could ONLY use the dice they provide you at official tourneys =D). I'd say either options are prone to cheats. Talk it out with your opponent.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Are computer cubes not cubes? I don't see why they wouldn't be.

They are virtual representations of Cubes. Might as well say a photo of a banana on my phone is a banana, so I can legally only feed my child pictures of bananas and it's not my fault when they die.

Hmm, this might just be a ideological divide we can't cross. The prevailing attitude among the Silicon Valley types I live and work with is that digital items such as this are as real as their counterparts, just existing in a different space.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Are computer cubes not cubes? I don't see why they wouldn't be.

They are virtual representations of Cubes. Might as well say a photo of a banana on my phone is a banana, so I can legally only feed my child pictures of bananas and it's not my fault when they die.

The rules don't specify what the dice are made of. They can be made up of electrons in a computer as easily as they can from plastic, wood or metal for rules purposes.

 doctortom wrote:
The rules don't specify what the dice are made of. They can be made up of electrons in a computer as easily as they can from plastic, wood or metal for rules purposes.

It also doesn't say they have to be sequentially numbered 1 to 6. It's an implicit inference via the English Language. Nor does it define what the word "through" means. Nor does it define what an "Inch" is

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The rules don't specify what the dice are made of. They can be made up of electrons in a computer as easily as they can from plastic, wood or metal for rules purposes.

It also doesn't say they have to be sequentially numbered 1 to 6. It's an implicit inference via the English Language. Nor does it define what the word "through" means. Nor does it define what an "Inch" is

And all irrelevant to the point that you can use electronic dice. You disprove absolutely nothing with your statement.

Electronic dice are something you need to clear with your opponant. As many of the "random" dice rollers are not truly random. I could yo into the logic behind how and why virtual dice are not truly random, but that goes down a really long, convoluted path.

The long and short of it, as long as your opponant is ok with it, use it. Other wise, use regular dice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
The rules don't specify what the dice are made of. They can be made up of electrons in a computer as easily as they can from plastic, wood or metal for rules purposes.

It also doesn't say they have to be sequentially numbered 1 to 6. It's an implicit inference via the English Language. Nor does it define what the word "through" means. Nor does it define what an "Inch" is

Definition of Through via Merriam Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/through

Definition of Inch via Merriam Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inch

Definition of Dice via Merriam Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dice

Doesn't look like there's a reference to it needing to be physical in the English language.

To be fair, nobody has ever managed to program a random number generator that actually turned out to be random.

Every "dice roller app" ever produced for what ever reason, when used enough ends up falling into predictable patterns. When a single unit can shoot 180 shots in a single turn the chances of 2 players reaching a pattern by the end of the game is pretty high.

 skchsan wrote:
Doesn't look like there's a reference to it needing to be physical in the English language.

English doesn't have a governing body and definitions are defined by popular usage. A dice app rolling virtual dice are not the same as dice. But Tenets of YMDC and all.

Remember when this form was about 40k rules, not arguments over the English language and context? I do.

 Lance845 wrote:
To be fair, nobody has ever managed to program a random number generator that actually turned out to be random.

Every "dice roller app" ever produced for what ever reason, when used enough eds up falling into predictable patterns. When a single unit can shoot 180 shots in a single turn the chances of 2 players reaching a pattern by the end of the game is pretty high.

To nitpick, no-one has come up with a RNG that is truely random in software. There are plenty of hardware methods to generate true randomness. Funnily enough, Dice are one of them.

Random.org uses hardware to generate a random number then display results via software.

I DID say program. As in software.

Magritte had similar issues in 1928:



We can only speculate what he would have made of virtual D6s.