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Can't decide which one to go for, the latter makes me worry i wont get past a lot of turns.

I think using Abbadon just for the rerolls is a huge waste of points. Sure, the CPs are nice, but his main strength is preventing morale losses, and you're not using that in these lists. If you want to use him, I suggest no less than 80 cultists. He also forces you to go Black Legion for the rerolls, which has a horrible Legion Trait.

I also don't see what's the point of the Rhino at all... you have nothing of value that it can transport.

Don't particularly like either lists to be honest. Both have damage output limited to 9 oblitorators, 1 Knight/FireRaptor and 20 horrors (who will only get one turn of decent shooting).

Would be much better if you dropped some toys (Rhino, Abbadon-> chaos lord, some cultists and/or brimstones) to include both the Fire Raptor and the Knight. Will significant;y improve the damage output and reduce your reliance on the Oblitorators doing most of the heavy listing.

Well the idea is board control within a likely 2-3 turn tournament game not outright offense. The cultists can actually with a bit of help pump out 160 shots hitting on 3 with a +1 to wound turn 1.. kinda makes them like firing 80 space marines.... That will kill a predator in one turn,

The rhino has a couple of uses:
1. DP screening / overwatch soak 2. more mobile objective grabber (army is actually slow)

Thing with abby is once the obits are gone he is a total beast in CC especially with often over looked 5+ DTTFE and his LD buff does (and has when testing) helped the obilts.

I do think he might be a bit over the top though here and perhaps a lord would make more sense. Then maybe just go all out Alpha legion. Thing is a jump/term lord is rocking in at least 100+ pts .... are 2cp and abbys buffs / better offense/defense worth 140pts i dunno i can't think what that 140pts could go on... perhaps drop the rhino then thats 4 lascannon havocs...

 Latro_ wrote:
Well the idea is board control within a likely 2-3 turn tournament game not outright offense. The cultists can actually with a bit of help pump out 160 shots hitting on 3 with a +1 to wound turn 1.. kinda makes them like firing 80 space marines.... That will kill a predator in one turn,

The rhino has a couple of uses:
1. DP screening / overwatch soak 2. more mobile objective grabber (army is actually slow)

Thing with abby is once the obits are gone he is a total beast in CC especially with often over looked 5+ DTTFE and his LD buff does (and has when testing) helped the obilts.

I do think he might be a bit over the top though here and perhaps a lord would make more sense. Then maybe just go all out Alpha legion. Thing is a jump/term lord is rocking in at least 100+ pts .... are 2cp and abbys buffs / better offense/defense worth 140pts i dunno i can't think what that 140pts could go on... perhaps drop the rhino then thats 4 lascannon havocs...

Well if you wan’t Deep striking screening there are better, more efficient units for that, mainly nurglings. Creates a bigger DS screen. Abby is terrible with oblits. You take Abby to make your giant 40 man cultist blob fearless so you can regenerate the unit and double shoot and maintain board control, but in neither of your lists does that even line up. It is better to give Oblits -1 to hit so they become a hard unitnto remove. Knights are just way too overpriced for what you get.

In my opinion, go with the second list, with a couple caveats.

I've said this a lot recently, so I sound a bit like a broken record, if you're going to buy Pink Horrors, commit to it, full 30 with 100-130 points set aside for reinforcements, make your opponent work to get them below 20.

Additionally, you might consider making 1 or 2 of your Obliterator units Tzeentch and possibly making your Daemon Prince also Tzeentch. That will provide you the locus for your battalion, which is not that impressive (but could come in handy), however, making your DP Tzeentch will allow him to cast Flickering Fires on the Pink Horrors or on your Tzeentchian Obliterators (who can then use veterans and be +2 to wound, making their worst wound roll a 3+).

Should be fun in a tournament and finish well within time. Not sure it's fully pushing the meta, but it's a solid list.

Aye got me thinking thanks guys

Hows about this, everything csm now Alpha legion

Spearhead <Chaos Space Marines, Alpha Legion>
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour <Slannesh> (Power Fist, Combi Bolter) 119 hq
Sorcerer <Slaanesh> (Jump Pack, Force Sword) 120 hq
3 Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 hs
3 Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 hs
3 Obilterators <Slaanesh> 195 hs
5 Havocs <Slaanesh> (4x Lascannons) 165 hs
40 Cultists <Slaanesh> (Lasguns) 160 t
Fire Raptor Gunship <Slaanesh> 302 Fl
Twin Avenger Bolt Cannon, 2x Quad Heavy Bolters
Hellstrike Missiles

Battalion <Chaos Daemons>
Changecaster (Staff of Change) 83 hq
Daemon Prince (Wings, 2x Talons) <Tzeentch, Warlord, Imp Robe, Daemonspark> 180 hq
30 Pink Horrors (Daemonic Icon) 225 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t
10 Brimstone Horrors 30 t

Could maybe drop the chaos lord and put the points into reserve points for the horrors? the DP provides the re-roll's to 1's to hit for the horrors and the obilts (if i swapped em to tzeentch) and with his trait they can re-roll 1's to wound!

popped some lascannon havocs in there for some more bite

You need the Chaos Lord unless you make the Obliterators Tzeentch.

You have 7 CP, max 6 units in deep strike, 13 drops (I’d guess you’d get the initiative bonus pretty regularly):
Obliterators, Chaos Lord, Sorcerer and Cultists puts you at 6 right off the bat.
1 CP Forward Operatives Chaos Cultists

So the Daemons Battalion is on the board. You have 6 CP left, assume you spend 2 CP On Endless Cacophony and 1 CP for Veterans, not counting any re-rolls or saving for Morale Save/Tide of Traitors on the Cultists.

You could drop the Havocs, use the points for reinforcements, switch 1 or 2 of the Obliterators to Tzeentch and drop them in next to the Daemon Prince, since that group should be able to operate effectively without significant CP investment.

Well the idea is could hot swap cultists + sorcerer or the herald and horrors based on situation for deep strike, although the daemons would be a stinging 3cp... i guess they compare with the cultists for dakka. Plus horrors starting on the board can always advance and shoot.

I'm def thinking maybe just drop the lord because can always like you say make the obilts all tzeentch march the DP up the board turn one then deep strike them around him. Considering this a lot since the re-roll 1's to wound and hit bubble is nasty as is the fact ye can FF one unit for +1 to wound and another unit can votlw for +1 wound... with eldar shenanigans on 'to hit' going on the extra wound benefits for the shots that do hit will be good i think. Not a great loss loosing slannesh on them because frees up those CP's for double shotting havocs and cultists

Idea was to take the fate power on the herald along with FF to mine a re-roll if needed.

 Latro_ wrote:
with eldar shenanigans on 'to hit' going on the extra wound benefits for the shots that do hit will be good i think.

This is becoming very similar to a list I've been working on for awhile, ironically. One of the decisions I eventually made with my Obliterators in the similar list was not going with Alpha Legion, my Obliterators are part of an Iron Warriors Spearhead, specifically so I could bypass cover with them. I felt this was important against several armies that appear very strong in the current meta, specifically, Jormungundr Tyranids, Eldar Rangers (and to a lesser extent Reapers which are typically stashed in some kind of cover), and AM psychic powers (can't remember the name right now). There's probably a few I'm missing in that list honestly, I just felt that if I was going to deep strike the Obliterators that the Alpha Legion trait isn't really doing much for them off board. That being said, I haven't run this list yet, so I can't honestly speak as to which I find more useful, but Reapers will ignore your Alpha Legion trait, so there's that.

Thats not a bad idea actually with the IW thing. Prob is i wanna have the cultists and get rid of the lord so splitting them back into a patrol is a pain.

Think i'm gonna get rid of that lord and have the 120ish pts for reserves for the horrors.

My worry is that with replacing horrors with blue and brims does this not stack up the chance of hefty LD tests since they die easier than the pinks? I guess you have to be careful with your removals and actually sometimes remove a pink or take a save on one at least even if you have blue and brims left (maybe one for tactica forum).

Also struck me i can just bring along some other daemon units and slam them down if the reserve pts dont get eaten up.

 Latro_ wrote:
Thats not a bad idea actually with the IW thing. Prob is i wanna have the cultists and get rid of the lord so splitting them back into a patrol is a pain.

Think i'm gonna get rid of that lord and have the 120ish pts for reserves for the horrors.

My worry is that with replacing horrors with blue and brims does this not stack up the chance of hefty LD tests since they die easier than the pinks? I guess you have to be careful with your removals and actually sometimes remove a pink or take a save on one at least even if you have blue and brims left (maybe one for tactica forum).

Also struck me i can just bring along some other daemon units and slam them down if the reserve pts dont get eaten up.

I don't think any of your concerns are off-base, like I said, a lot of this is theory, I haven't had a chance to sit down and really test it out on the table. Hopefully a combination of the fact that you have several tempting targets for your opponent and the fact that the pinks should require a pretty significant amount of fire to really burn them down may mitigate some of the fire the Pinks take, but yeah, you may want to either save some CP for morale, or take a hit on a Pink every once in awhile. Also, I suspect you may find Gaze of Fate useful for morale just on the off-chance you can roll a 1 and get some Pinks back.

im planning to run a very similar list, my only problem the next tournament will not allow to play double battalions, you can play only battalion and patrol so for me main problem is cp's shortage, so im planning to play Abbadono, at least he grants me 2 extra cp's and fearless to my 80 cultists.