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Hello my fellow friends.
If Scions got the Stormtrooper regiment Bonus
Do they get an extra d6 shot with a Grenade Launcher on a Six or just a single shot ?

Thanks for answering.

Edit: removed to avoid confusion

I would say only a single additional attack for every 6+ hit roll. At least that is how the Bolter Drill and DakkaDakka stratagems are working

It is an extra shot. the weapon has d6 shots.

so 1.

If it was d6 it would have said "make an extra attack".

 Ordana wrote:
It is an extra shot. the weapon has d6 shots.

so 1.

If it was d6 it would have said "make an extra attack".

Not quite, as those D6 shots are also D6 attacks.

So even if it was "extra attack" it'd still only be 1.

Another for the FAQ pile then on account of GW loving to use the same word for multiple different things

8 ball says: try again later

I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

I'd actually lean toward another D6 myself.

No, of course you don't get a full additional D6 attacks. That would make it the most powerful regiment by far, and almost certainly break the game. Think about that reasoning applied to a Baneblade*. If you roll a 6 on any of its 3D6 shots you get another 3D6 shots? You really think that the bonus is supposed to be interpreted as "double your firepower", something far out of line with all of the others? Of course not. You get one shot, not D6.

*No, Mliwhatsit Trademarks can't be taken by a Baneblade. But you can make your own custom regiment and use the stormtrooper rules (but not characters or relics or stratagems or warlord traits) for it as the "best representation" of your fluff.

 Peregrine wrote:
No, of course you don't get a full additional D6 attacks. That would make it the most powerful regiment by far, and almost certainly break the game. Think about that reasoning applied to a Baneblade*. If you roll a 6 on any of its 3D6 shots you get another 3D6 shots? You really think that the bonus is supposed to be interpreted as "double your firepower", something far out of line with all of the others? Of course not. You get one shot, not D6.

*No, Mliwhatsit Trademarks can't be taken by a Baneblade. But you can make your own custom regiment and use the stormtrooper rules (but not characters or relics or stratagems or warlord traits) for it as the "best representation" of your fluff.

No one outside the Scion units can get the MT rules because it specifically says you cannot replace <Regiment> with <MT>. Making a custom regiment does not get you around this limitation.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

But you still roll a hit-die for every single attack. If the grenadelauncher used a single hit-roll, then your interpretation would make more sense.

 Ordana wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No, of course you don't get a full additional D6 attacks. That would make it the most powerful regiment by far, and almost certainly break the game. Think about that reasoning applied to a Baneblade*. If you roll a 6 on any of its 3D6 shots you get another 3D6 shots? You really think that the bonus is supposed to be interpreted as "double your firepower", something far out of line with all of the others? Of course not. You get one shot, not D6.

*No, Mliwhatsit Trademarks can't be taken by a Baneblade. But you can make your own custom regiment and use the stormtrooper rules (but not characters or relics or stratagems or warlord traits) for it as the "best representation" of your fluff.

No one outside the Scion units can get the MT rules because it specifically says you cannot replace <Regiment> with <MT>. Making a custom regiment does not get you around this limitation.

Incorrect - at least, regarding the doctrine.

No-one is saying you can take <Militarum Tempestus> on Baneblades. They're saying they can have Storm Troopers on Baneblades.

<Militarum Tempestus> is not the same as Storm Troopers.
Storm Troopers can be taken just as easily as someone can choose to have Swift as the Wind, Born Soldiers or Brutal Strength. They just won't be able to get the full benefit, as they can't take the Relics associated with the <Regiments>.

<Regiment> =/= Doctrine.

pismakron wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

But you still roll a hit-die for every single attack. If the grenadelauncher used a single hit-roll, then your interpretation would make more sense.

This is mainly because 40K rules don't delineate between a "shot" and an "attack" and there is no rules mechanic to differentiate them as there should be. The mechanics have been simplified to where there is no difference between an Assault cannon firing several small rounds, and a grenade launcher firing one round which hits D6 people. The removal of templates/scatter meant that single-round multi-hit weapons would take it in the pants if they didn't do it this way.

Mechnically I do think you can argue it's a single bonus attack, but I wouldn't have an issue with you popping off another frag grenade and doing the full D6 roll.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
No, of course you don't get a full additional D6 attacks. That would make it the most powerful regiment by far, and almost certainly break the game. Think about that reasoning applied to a Baneblade*. If you roll a 6 on any of its 3D6 shots you get another 3D6 shots? You really think that the bonus is supposed to be interpreted as "double your firepower", something far out of line with all of the others? Of course not. You get one shot, not D6.

*No, Mliwhatsit Trademarks can't be taken by a Baneblade. But you can make your own custom regiment and use the stormtrooper rules (but not characters or relics or stratagems or warlord traits) for it as the "best representation" of your fluff.

No one outside the Scion units can get the MT rules because it specifically says you cannot replace <Regiment> with <MT>. Making a custom regiment does not get you around this limitation.

Incorrect - at least, regarding the doctrine.

No-one is saying you can take <Militarum Tempestus> on Baneblades. They're saying they can have Storm Troopers on Baneblades.

<Militarum Tempestus> is not the same as Storm Troopers.
Storm Troopers can be taken just as easily as someone can choose to have Swift as the Wind, Born Soldiers or Brutal Strength. They just won't be able to get the full benefit, as they can't take the Relics associated with the <Regiments>.

<Regiment> =/= Doctrine.

It does indeed appear you are correct.

So I put it to everyone who thinks you get another d6 shots.

My Leman Russ Punisher from my custom regiment using the Storm Trooper doctrine does not move and fires twice at a unit within half range.
I get to throw 40 dice and every 6 gives me another 20.
agreed?

(thats 133 bonus shots on average, from a doctrine on 1 tank. Yes its a stupid situation to try and paint but I think it gets the point across)

....I need to check this myself, I refuse to believe a tourney player hasn't tried to exploit this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Militarum Tempestus

MILITARUM TEMPESTUS units can
be included in an ASTRA MILITARUM
Detachment without preventing other
units in that Detachment from gaining
a Regimental Doctrine. Note, however,
that the MILITARUM TEMPESTUS
units do not themselves benefit from any
Regimental Doctrine unless every unit in that
Detachment is from the Militarum Tempestus
(in which case they will gain the Storm
Troopers doctrine).

The rulebook states that MT don't receive a Doctrine, unless everyone in that Detachment is from the MT. Since you can't use MT to replace <REGIMENT> It is impossible for everything in a detachment to be MT. So no, no stormtrooper baneblades.

Many edits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yea nevermind I'm wrong GW shot their rules in the foot from both a RAI and RAW perspective

If your chosen regiment does not have
an associated Regimental Doctrine, you
may pick the doctrine that you feel best
represents your army.

If they made it so <REGIMENT> instead was <DOCTRINE> all these issues would be solved.

So how does this differ from the mortarion/ wraithknight thread a little while back when most seemed to agree that 6s to hit granted the full profile of extra attacks and not just 1?

 Swillsswil wrote:
So how does this differ from the mortarion/ wraithknight thread a little while back when most seemed to agree that 6s to hit granted the full profile of extra attacks and not just 1?

With those, each attack gets multiple hit rolls.

With a Grenade Launcher, you just get a random number of attacks, but each attack is only a single die.

Isn't that only because there is no such thing as a "melee X" weapon? Both are in effect saying the same thing: I attack once and get to roll multiple dice to hit.

 Swillsswil wrote:
Isn't that only because there is no such thing as a "melee X" weapon? Both are in effect saying the same thing: I attack once and get to roll multiple dice to hit.

No. They're not.

Mortarion or Knights (Wraith or Imperial) say "Make X hit rolls per attack."

Grenade Launchers say, in effect, "Make X attack rolls."

Do you see the difference?

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Swillsswil wrote:
Isn't that only because there is no such thing as a "melee X" weapon? Both are in effect saying the same thing: I attack once and get to roll multiple dice to hit.

No. They're not.

Mortarion or Knights (Wraith or Imperial) say "Make X hit rolls per attack."

Grenade Launchers say, in effect, "Make X attack rolls."

Do you see the difference?

Except unlike melee GW has used shot, hit and attack interchangably, which means any attempt on our part is pure RAI discussion as the RAW is completely unclear. This needs to be an FAQ item in the March update. I already did my part and emailed the FAQ address, asking them to clarify the wording both of the stratagem and clearly define what exactly the different words "Attack" "Hit" and "Shot" refer to in the context of random-value weapons

A grenade launcher has D6 attacks/shots. It's a variable number of attacks not an attack roll. If I roll a 4, it has 4 attacks for that turn. If I roll a 6 on the to hit portion, I get to make another attack, on top of the 4 I already get. In this case that would be a total of 5 attacks made. Compare this to the volley gun. The volley gun has a fixed number of attacks and each hit roll of 6 produces another attack. You don't get to make another 4 attacks per every 6 rolled.

Rolling the number of attacks is not the same as making a to hit roll. The doctrine does not specify rolling the variable number of shots again, whereas the Catachan doctrine does.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

What it would have been in a different game is irrelevant.

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

What it would have been in a different game is irrelevant.

Not really, as one grenade *shot* does D6 attacks, so it feels entirely relevant to me. Same as a Twin Lascannon shot does two attacks with each shot. If you disagree play it differently, butvincluding the 7th comparison in no way changes the meaning of the rest of my sentence.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

What it would have been in a different game is irrelevant.

Not really, as one grenade *shot* does D6 attacks, so it feels entirely relevant to me. Same as a Twin Lascannon shot does two attacks with each shot. If you disagree play it differently, butvincluding the 7th comparison in no way changes the meaning of the rest of my sentence.

Your 7th comparison means exactly nothing. 8th is a different game. The rules do different things. The weapon doesn't just have changed values it has a completely different characteristics profile.

A rapid fire gun does 2 "shots" at half range. Not 2 shot. The grenade launcher, raw, doesnt do 1 shot with d6 hits the way necron tesla does. It rolls d6 to hit rolls or d6 shots. Its not one "shot".

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say D6, as the one grenade shot that would have been a template now uses D6 attacks to simulate the blast.

What it would have been in a different game is irrelevant.

Not really, as one grenade *shot* does D6 attacks, so it feels entirely relevant to me. Same as a Twin Lascannon shot does two attacks with each shot. If you disagree play it differently, butvincluding the 7th comparison in no way changes the meaning of the rest of my sentence.

Your 7th comparison means exactly nothing. 8th is a different game. The rules do different things. The weapon doesn't just have changed values it has a completely different characteristics profile.

A rapid fire gun does 2 "shots" at half range. Not 2 shot. The grenade launcher, raw, doesnt do 1 shot with d6 hits the way necron tesla does. It rolls d6 to hit rolls or d6 shots. Its not one "shot".

I understand it is a different game. Separate the flavour from the info in what I posted. Don't polarise. I understand you.

Fair point on the rest.

So you guys think it doesnt get another D6 shot ?

PsychoDad wrote:
So you guys think it doesnt get another D6 shot ?

Just one extra, per hit rolled. So if you roll 4 shots, roll a 6, 6, 5, and 4, you get 2 extra shots.

D6 shots + 1 for every 6+. No question.