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Edited the title to reflect the change in points in my last post.

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Hi all. I'm just getting into this game with my son. I want to build toward a 2,000 pt army. Looking at Raven Guard but with the flexibility to turn to Ultramarine. I'm really into the math aspect of the game and have created an Excel sheet to try and determine the most efficient models. I'm not super competitive, but I do like to perform analysis. This is the list I've put together. I will likely build up my models slowly but I want to have a goal in mind.

The general idea is that the Dreadnought, Predator, and Devastators hang back with the Captain & Lieutenant. Hellblasters can hang back or advance on the middle of the field. Terminators with Terminator characters drop into close combat to tie up tanks or hard hitting units. Aggressors use 'strike from the shadows' to get off a good alpha strike, otherwise hang back. Scouts screen and secure objectives. In hind sight, the Razorbacks are probably not necessary since I don't have great troop options to put inside them. Maybe I'd swap them for something else.

I would really appreciate any feedback on the quality of the list and what models I should pick up first to maintain a somewhat competitive list as I move from 500 -> 1,000 -> 1,500 -> 2,000.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [49 PL, 710pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian in Terminator Armor [9 PL, 143pts]: 1) Veil of Time, 4) Fury of the Ancients, 6) Null Zone, Force sword, Storm shield

Lieutenants [4 PL, 63pts]
. Lieutenant: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin assault cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 95pts]: Armorium Cherub . 3x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun, Chainsword . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Lascannon

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

++ Total: [49 PL, 710pts] ++


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [30 PL, 605pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator . 4x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator . 4x Hellblaster . Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Predator [9 PL, 198pts]: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Twin lascannon, Two Lascannons

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Use Beta Rules

++ Total: [30 PL, 605pts] ++


++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [35 PL, 688pts] ++

+ HQ +

Captain in Terminator Armor [7 PL, 136pts]: Raven's Fury, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 206pts]: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launchers, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod, Onslaught Gatling Cannon

Terminator Assault Squad [12 PL, 235pts]: Teleport Homer . Terminator Sergeant . . Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield: Storm shield, Thunder hammer . 4x Terminator w/THSS: 4x Storm shield, 4x Thunder hammer

++ Total: [35 PL, 688pts] ++

I think you're a bit short on anti tank. Most things are outfitted for anti infantry duty. At the moment you're main anti tank is from the predator and devastator squad, but then the devs squad is mostly empty. The Hellblasters can contribute a bit but they can mostly just do clean up duty on already damaged vehicles. Terminators will wreck stuff if they get into CC, but thats the hard part. With no transport and just one unit deep striking its relying on a a lot of luck. Even if the Librarian casts veil of time its still only about 50/50 to make a 9" charge out of deep strike. Hammers are good but you'll want a better delivery system. On a side note your terminator captain cant take ravens fury. Has to have a jump pack (it doesn't give him one)

You could try Vanguard vets, with greater move its possible to deploy them out of sight then fly in next turn. Still risky and terrain dependant. The best way for successful deep strike charges is numbers. That leaves a transported option. You could take 4 squads of 2 company veterans (to maximise the number of sergeants) Shields all around, hammers on the sergeants, plasma guns on the rest. Put these in the razorbacks, strip off the captains terminator armour, give the Lieutenant a hammer and put one in each too. If you had points, an apothecary and company ancient in the razors would also be good. Giving you additional attacks, and resurrections to keep the ball rolling.

I don't know if you really need the librarian, and primaris stuff in general I'm not a fan of other than inceptors. I'd be inclined to drop something and take another las predator.

In general there's quite a few different options for an army that work well, its good to have some sort of style in mind when you make an army. Be it thematic, a play style or what just seems cool. There seem's to be a little bit of everything at the moment. MSU aint bad, but you have to be careful not to dilute yourself too much.

Couple of points:

You can only use ravens fury on jump pack models.

The Redemptor is awesome, looks cool, but it only has a 3+ save. Contemptor Dreadnoughts are a bit better. They hit on 2+ instead of 3+, they have a 2+ save and a 5+ invul save. If you want to maintain the same amount of fire power then use a relic Contemptor or a mortis Contemptor. The rules for both of those are from forge world.

Terminators... I have a lot of them but I don't really use them. They cost a lot of points and are a huge target.

Vehicles don't benefit from the raven guard -1 to hit rule, only infantry, bikes, and Dreadnoughts.

Your warlord: right now you have 2 Hq at almost 150 points. The raven guard chapter master is only 150 points and you get amazing benefits from taking him.

Thanks for the responses. I'm still soaking up the feedback and debating what changes to make. For a start, after some more research I'm leaning toward taking multiple Venerable Dreadnoughts with 2x twin lascannons instead of the redemptor, predator, and devastators. This would give me the chapter tactics benefit, allow me to absorb some wounds and still have the same number of shots, avoid degrading stats, and give me some close combat ability if/when the other army closes the gap. I could also substitute twin autocannons if playing an army that's less tanky. I do wonder what is the right amount of anti-tank? The dreadnoughts can each pump out 4 lascannon shots. There are only a couple of anit-tank weapons for space marines and the lascannon seems to be the easiest to get and best. So how many lascannon shots should I plan on having for a standard 2,000 point army? I'm thinking at least 8, but could easily run 3 ven dreads and get 12.

You might want to reread the codex again as you can't loadout your dreadnaughts that way. Only mortis, contemptor mortis or relic contemptors can have double heavy weapon arms.

I think you're right. It seems like I can use the Index to create a 2x twin autocannon dread or a 1x twin lascannon & 1x twin autocannon dread, but not 2x twin lascannons. Ahhhh. I really hate having multiple sources.

I'm still curious what is the right number of anti tank guns (lascannons) in a 2,000 pt army?

Might be worth thinking about changing one of your HQs for Lias Issodon, Chapter Master with 0+ armour save in cover, a monstrous 3-shot Ap-4 Bolter, and allows you to Deep Strike him and three other units, granting those units re-rolling all misses and +1" to all move, advances and charges.

It's not so much how many lascannons, but more what you could potentially kill in a turn. Lascannons can vary a lot in effectiveness depending on what's shooting it and what buffs are available. Usually at 2k I look at being able to kill 2 rhino equivalents in a turn. Doesn't have to purely be from lascannons or at range though.

For arguments sake just say it's mostly from lascannons. Unmodified you need about 9 SM Lascannon shots to down a rhino. So for 2k i'd look at about 18 unmodified Lascannons at least. But you never run stuff all unmodified in practice. Captains, chapter masters, lieutenants, chapter tactics and strategems all can increase their effectiveness more than their respective points cost. Usually I end up at around 12 lascannons or some equivalent with some buffs available to them. Generic buffs work well because you always have anti tank and anti infantry in your army and don't know if your opponent will swing one way or the other. If you invest in 18 lascannons and the other guy runs a horde, it's tricky. If you've just got 12, but can use your chapter master buff or command points to support your anti infantry, it's a lot better.

If you are considering going dread heavy, salamanders chapter tactics is a strong buff for them. Likewise with any or msu.

Clarifying question from Valkyrie's post. I wasn't aware of Lias Issodon, so I've done a little bit of research. He does look awesome. He fits as both a deep strike commander or a gun line commander, and having the Chapter Master trait without burning command points is a big deal. As I understand it, I would have to run my chapter as Raptors. I'm assuming I can use all the same Space Marine units and rules (Raven Guard Chapter Tactics) and just substitute in Lias Issodon from the Foregworld book. Are there other Forgeworld rules that I need to incorporate as well?

I'm a little hesitant to use Forgeworld since I've heard some groups are reluctant to allow it. I could always swap him out for a more traditional HQ in that case, but I want to make sure I'm adhering to the rules and generally accepted etiquette.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one clarifying question on rahxephon's post. If I have my captain and lieutenant parked near my dreads or other heavy hitters, I can't re-roll a re-roll. If this is correct the Salamander chapter tactic is a little bit muted. I think I need to play around with my army a little bit more and try out different chapter tactics. I'm starting to see that the key is generating as many re-rolls as possible.

Yeah you can't re roll rerolls, the salamanders CT just gives things a bit of independence. You can't have captains and lieutenants everywhere. Plus they just reroll 1s.

Whether to use FW or not just depends on who you play with really. Most people I play with don't prefer it in pick up games because it's a bit more unknown plus some things in FW are very good and others are trash. W40k balancing is already swingy. But for a planned game they can make it more interesting.

Okay, so I've made some pretty drastic changes to this list. I really like the idea of using Lias Issodon. I'm hopeful that my opponents are okay with using him in friendly games.

The general idea is that the Dreadnoughts, Techmarine, Razorback, Devs [deployed in Razorback], & Hellblasters hang back and form a castle. Captain and Lieutenant drop into the middle of this group to limit drops. Scouts create a bubble around the castle. Inceptors kept in reserve to take advantage when the opponent's army gets out of place. The veterans, aggressors, and Lias use his SFtS ability to get close to the opponent. I think the veterans could do really good work since they can move, shoot plasma, and charge. They could even jump over the enemies line to get in the right position to hit the big guns. The aggressors can form a wall in front of Lias and benefit from not moving.

The veterans will probably not perform great if I don't get the first turn. I think the aggressors could still work really well when going second as I would just drop them on an objective, hopefully in cover, and dare the opponent to root them out. Overall, the list has decent anti tank, decent anti infantry, and decent close combat.

I've really appreciated the feedback I've gotten on this thread and the overall knowledge I've been able to gain from this forum. I'd really love some more feedback about this list, how it can be improved, and what to do with the veterans if I go second. I have the dark imperium troops, along with a captain, librarian, and venerable dreadnought. I'm in the process of painting these up and will look to expand once I get through them, I really only want to play painted models. I'd like to get my army to 2,000 points within about 1 month, so please help me refine this list so I can start picking up units.

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [76 PL, 1291pts]
++ ++

+ Fast Attack [10 PL, 135pts] +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: Assault bolter [60pts], 2x Inceptor [50pts], Inceptor Sergeant [25pts]

+ HQ [11 PL, 174pts] +

Captain [6 PL, 93pts]: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Jump Pack [1 PL, 19pts]

Lieutenants [5 PL, 81pts]
. Lieutenant [5 PL, 81pts]: Chainsword, Jump Pack [1 PL, 18pts], Master-crafted boltgun [3pts]

+ Troops [18 PL, 165pts] +

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant [11pts]: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 4x Scout w/Boltgun [44pts]

+ Dedicated Transport [5 PL, 122pts] +

Razorback [5 PL, 122pts]: Hunter-killer missile [6pts], Storm bolter [2pts], Twin assault cannon [44pts]

+ Heavy Support [16 PL, 285pts] +

Devastator Squad [8 PL, 120pts]: Armorium Cherub [5pts] . 2x Space Marine [26pts] . Space Marine Sergeant [13pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [38pts]: Lascannon [25pts] . Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon [38pts]: Lascannon [25pts]

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: Plasma incinerator [75pts] . 4x Hellblaster [72pts] . Hellblaster Sergeant [18pts]: Bolt pistol

+ Elites [16 PL, 410pts] +

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 205pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 10pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Veteran Sergeant [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts]

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 205pts]: Jump Pack [1 PL, 10pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Space Marine Veteran [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts] . Veteran Sergeant [39pts]: Plasma pistol [7pts], Thunder hammer [16pts]

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [26 PL, 514pts]
++ ++

+ HQ [4 PL, 57pts] +

Techmarine [4 PL, 57pts]: Boltgun, Chainsword, Servo-arm [12pts]

+ Elites [22 PL, 457pts] +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor [42pts], Aggressor Sergeant [21pts], Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher [48pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon [33pts], Twin lascannon [50pts]

++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Imperium - FW Adeptus Astartes) [10 PL,
++ 195pts] ++

+ HQ [10 PL, 195pts] +

Lias Issodon [10 PL, 195pts]

++ Total: [112 PL, 2000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

2 points:

1. Lias can not take primaris units with him in ambush. So the aggressors cant go with him.

2. Using thunderhammers for models with less than 3 attacks is a huge waste of points. Of you really want them, keep them for the sergeants, but take a different powerweapon for the rest of your vanguard veterans. These points could be used tobgetva few more veterans per squad, giving you more attacks.

I totally forgot about not being able to take Aggressors in SFtS with Lias. I'll have to think about that a little bit.

Can you expand on your second point? From the math I've done, it looks like Thunder Hammers are one of the most efficient weapons in the game when hitting tanks. Obviously 3 attacks would be better than 2, but there are no non-sergeant, non-single model that have 3 attacks and can take hammers. Unless I'm missing something.

Something else I just noticed... If you give your vanguard guys jump packs, then you dont need lias for the drop. Shrike would be a better option here. 45 points less for the model and he has awesome abilities, like silent strike. The enemy can't fire overwatch on his charge.

Lets assume you go with Shrike, and you switch your vanguards to lightning claws, keeping the hammers on the sergeants. That's 8 points for 8 models. Now you saved 64 points, you still rerolling failed hits bc of your chapter master and now you are rerolling failed wounds. They will shred through infantry. And now you have 109 points to play with.

If you want more vehicle crushing power, power fists are not bad and cheaper, still saving 32 points. With the savings from the lias to Shrike swap, that's 77 points. Thats an extra vanguard veteran per squad, so 2 more plasma shots and 4 total attacks.

Remember, its all about saving points and trying to squeeze in extra attacks.

I dont think you should have to focus your jump pack guys on anti tank. You have 6 lascannon shots, auto cannons, and a hellblaster squad.

I'm going to scale down this list a bit in order to get feedback on what I have at this point. I'd love to get some feedback on the quality of this list and some pointers on where I should go from here.

This is pretty much a gun line with the dreadnoughts, captain, and lieutenants forming the castle. Intercessors and scouts used as bubble wrap and for grabbing objectives. Inceptors used to grab objectives and drop in as needed. Will use SFtS on the aggressors to try and get a good alpha strike, otherwise I will place them near my castle or an objective if I go second.

I'm really thinking about Reivers. They cost the same as the Intercessor assault variant, yet they get the grav chutes. This seems like a huge advantage as I can drop them on any unguarded objective. I'm trying to understand how valuable this would be. Does anyone have positive experiences with these troops used in this way?


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [59 PL, 998pts] ++

+ Fast Attack +

Inceptor Squad [10 PL, 135pts]: Assault bolter, 2x Inceptor, Inceptor Sergeant

+ HQ +

Primaris Captain [6 PL, 95pts]: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Power sword

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 74pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, The Armour Indomitus

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 91pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Scout Squad [6 PL, 55pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Astartes shotgun, Chainsword
. 4x Scout w/Boltgun

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Raven Guard

Gametype: Matched

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 173pts]: Twin autocannon, Twin lascannon

++ Total: [59 PL, 998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)