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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/07 22:11:45
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Fresh-Faced New User
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So I'm fairly certain that most people play games with points limits most of the time (this is the case for me). However, this got me thinking, what is the cheapest troop in the game for power level compared to points cost (e.g. swarmlord 300 points / 15 powerlevel = 20 points per power level) Just curious, I look forward to seeing all the cheapest troops!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 0025/03/08 12:35:08
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy
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I think the general agreement is what you described 1 PP = 20 pts.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/08 14:43:10
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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This formula used to work out almost perfectly before the Codices were released: Minimum points for the unit (basic wargear, no upgrades) + Most expensive points loadout without adding models, average and divided by 20 = Power level So 5 bolter Marines cost 65pts and I think the most expensive 5 Marine loadout was with Mult-melta and a Sgt with Power fist and combi-melta ~130pts (don't quite remember from the Index) 65 + 130 = 195 / 2 = 97.5 / 20 = 4.875. Rounds to 5. Therefore 5 Marines are Power level 5. The "rebalancing" of points in the Codices has thrown this off a bit in some cases, but in general, 20pts = 1PL -
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/08 14:47:28
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/08 15:29:08
Subject: Re:Power level points comparison
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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So, I did all the Points to PL comparisons for Custodes, and found some interesting things.
For Custodian Guard, larger squads get you MORE points per PL. But for Wardens and Allarus, you actually get LESS points per PL as you scale up squad size. Vertus Praetors do not change in Points to PL comparison at any squad size.
In addition, best Points to PL was max-sized Guard squads, with their unique character in second place.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/08 16:35:09
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Dakka Veteran
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It's important to remember that back in the Developer FAQ they stated that Power Level was an approximation of all weapon layouts for a squad. This is especially evident in Heavy Weapon teams like Devastators. They're PL is 1 or 2 points higher than a basic Tac squad, implying that they're equipped with heavy bolters or something, making them overcosted if you don't take them with any special/heavy weapons and undercosted if you take max Lascannons.
Personally I think it makes sense to make larger units slightly cheaper. They don't fit into transports as well, you only get a single "Sarge" in comparison to multiple units, you don't get wound overflow as easily and larger units are more susceptible to leadership checks. Causing 10 wounds to 5 guardsmen, is incredibly inefficient, especially when compared to causing 10 wounds to 20 guardsmen, Not only do you not have wound "overflow" but there's also a good chance that some models in the larger unit will break because of morale.
Also, Shameless plug, I've been working on a side project with some friends on "changing" power levels slightly, mostly just for our own homebrew games. I play Dark Eldar so naturally I started with them first. Would love to know what y'all think!
Google Spreadsheet
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/08 18:17:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/20 21:09:00
Subject: Re:Power level points comparison
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I've read the Warhammer Community post from GW on power levels, but as a newcomer to WH40K 8th edition (having come from 1st edition after a looooong break), are people using the new power levels for non-tournament matched play or are points still king?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/21 06:57:00
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 00:15:35
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
UK
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It's still points of gtfo, as it ever should be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 00:22:58
Subject: Re:Power level points comparison
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Ignore Hobo. Some people are angry because other people play games differently than them (hence the obnoxious response, etc.)
The "Matched Play" realm, i.e. most tournaments, etc. are definitely still points. I see about a 70%/30% with points being more prevalent. The main difference is that with the release of Chapter Approved, a heap of units (mainly Forge World, etc.) were nerfed to pieces with points, while their Power Level stayed the same.
This means you could much more easily take gigantic, game-altering units in a power level or "casual" game, but they're prohibitively expensive in Matched Play games/tournaments which are using points. In effect GW limited these units so they'll only ever show in Apocalypse style games etc. (another place where people are using Power Level predominantly).
If you're trying to plan an army, I'd suggest points as it's more common.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 00:54:14
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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I don't like to use PL. Here is one reason why...
A five man squad of Intercessors is 5 PL; now take a squad of six and the PL doubles. That makes absolutely no sense at all and there are people who will game it as much as they can.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 01:20:31
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Clousseau
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I only use PL for narrative campaigns. I don't care about points. In tournament or casual power gaming environments, points make more sense.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 03:50:55
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
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I play both power level and points. It works fine either way. You will encounter "never power level guys" and they can be a bit tiresome.
Try them both and see which works for you and your group.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 04:36:21
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran
McCragge
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PL forces you to design your lists a very specific way.
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Bow down to Guilliman for he is our new God Emperor!
Martel - "Custodes are terrible in 8th. Good luck with them. They take all the problems of marines and multiply them."
"Lol, classic martel. 'I know it was strong enough to podium in the biggest tournament in the world but I refuse to acknowledge space marines are good because I can't win with them and it can't possibly be ME'."
DakkaDakka is really the place where you need anti-tank guns to kill basic dudes, because anything less isn't durable enough. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 05:47:08
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion
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load up with all the expensive options and assume the other guy did the same?
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Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 06:19:43
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine
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Yes, because God forbid the other guy might have an advantage. Losing a game of 40k might make you look weak.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 06:23:43
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade
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Primark G wrote:I don't like to use PL. Here is one reason why...
A five man squad of Intercessors is 5 PL; now take a squad of six and the PL doubles. That makes absolutely no sense at all and there are people who will game it as much as they can.
So.. take a full unit of 10 then for the same PL as 6?
Power Level assumes you max out the unit with all gear and possible upgrades.
I play a mix of both depending upon the situation and the type of game being played.
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"Courage and Honour. I hear you murmur these words in the mist, in their wake I hear your hearts beat harder with false conviction seeking to convince yourselves that a brave death has meaning.
There is no courage to be found here my nephews, no honour to be had. Your souls will join the trillion others in the mist shrieking uselessly to eternity, weeping for the empire you could not save.
To the unfaithful, I bring holy plagues ripe with enlightenment. To the devout, I bring the blessing of immortality through the kiss of sacred rot.
And to you, new-born sons of Gulliman, to you flesh crafted puppets of a failing Imperium I bring the holiest gift of all.... Silence."
- Mortarion, The Death Lord, The Reaper of Men, Daemon Primarch of Nurgle
5300 | 2800 | 3600 | 1600 | |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 06:45:09
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Regular Dakkanaut
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BrianDavion wrote:
load up with all the expensive options and assume the other guy did the same?
That's part of the problem, but the other is that there is little room for partial squads, generally staying at full min or full max unit size is better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 06:53:47
Subject: Re:Power level points comparison
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Elbows wrote:The "Matched Play" realm, i.e. most tournaments, etc. are definitely still points. I see about a 70%/30% with points being more prevalent. The main difference is that with the release of Chapter Approved, a heap of units (mainly Forge World, etc.) were nerfed to pieces with points, while their Power Level stayed the same.
This means you could much more easily take gigantic, game-altering units in a power level or "casual" game, but they're prohibitively expensive in Matched Play games/tournaments which are using points. In effect GW limited these units so they'll only ever show in Apocalypse style games etc. (another place where people are using Power Level predominantly).
If you're trying to plan an army, I'd suggest points as it's more common.
Thanks - I thought that would be the case. Interesting that Chapter Approved changed the points but not the power levels, although looking back at the Warhammer Community post from GW they did say:
"It also means that, in the future, points for units could change without invalidating existing books – so if one unit or weapon starts to dominate tournaments, or certain units don’t seem to be carrying their weight in competitive games, we can address the balance."
Primark G wrote:PL forces you to design your lists a very specific way.
Right - and I think I'd rather have the flexibility to take a smaller squad without incurring a disadvantage.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/21 07:02:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 11:44:41
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Clousseau
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Power Level is also more for narrative style gaming, which most of the people I encounter on the internet are not suited for. Narrative gaming is vastly different from tournament or "matched play" gaming.
Narrative gaming is often not about "being fair" but rather about fighting battles as they'd occur in the fictiion, or retelling stories where things arent usually ever perfectly matched and fair.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 11:55:28
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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auticus wrote:Power Level is also more for narrative style gaming, which most of the people I encounter on the internet are not suited for.
No it isn't. Power level offers nothing over the more detailed point system in narrative gaming. Making your point system less accurate and calling it "power" doesn't make it better for anything. Well, I suppose it's better for virtue signalling about how "casual" you are because you refuse to allow balance into your game, but I don't see any value in that.
(General "you", not you personally.)
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/21 11:59:14
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 12:26:45
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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If the game is not supposed to be balanced in the first place, you might as well use PL for easier access.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 12:35:48
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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Jidmah wrote:If the game is not supposed to be balanced in the first place, you might as well use PL for easier access.
Saving a minimal amount of time, zero time if you use an army builder program to generate your list. Plus, isn't that a pretty pathetic concession? "Our game is a dumpster fire and we put no effort into balancing it, so you might as well just use the fastest point system to roughly throw some meaningless numbers together".
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:08:40
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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So, what point levels would you suggest for an endless assault of tyranids where every unit that gets wiped out respawns at the edge of the battlefield to fight against a smaller imperial force in the middle of the board?
1000 vs 1500? 1000 vs 1750? 1250 vs 2000? 1432 vs 1804?
Correct answer is: It doesn't matter, the imperials are going to die.
So don't bother counting your sergeant's storm bolters and power swords.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:12:52
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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Jidmah wrote:Correct answer is: It doesn't matter, the imperials are going to die.
So don't bother counting your sergeant's storm bolters and power swords.
Then why bother counting the cost of your tactical squad and HQ? Just throw some models on the table and roll dice until the space marines are dead.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:19:53
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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How do you know that the marines aren't more powerful than the nids?
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:26:18
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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Jidmah wrote:How do you know that the marines aren't more powerful than the nids?
Why do you care? You have infinite respawning units, eventually they're going to win. Remember, that inevitability is why you think it isn't worth adding up point costs for upgrades, you can't turn around and say that you now need to know the exact strengths of each force instead of assuming that the endless horde will eventually win because it is endless.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:39:39
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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You are the one that added the word "exact".
Power level is for when you don't care about exact numbers.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:47:25
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Jidmah wrote:You are the one that added the word "exact".
Power level is for when you don't care about exact numbers.
But why do you need to know the relative power at all? The Nids have infinitely respawning units, they're gonna win.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:51:28
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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Jidmah wrote:Power level is for when you don't care about exact numbers. Automatically Appended Next Post: Jidmah wrote:Power level is for when you don't care about exact numbers.
But then why do you care about numbers at all? Using power levels only makes sense if you don't care about balance at all (such as in the scenario with the predetermined winner), at which point why bother using any kind of point system? And if you care about balance at all using the full point system is only a small amount of extra work to improve balance.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/21 13:52:47
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 13:57:17
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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Because 1000 PL of imperials are not going to lose to 50 PL of nids, unless you brought nothing but manticores. There are colors besides black and white.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/21 13:57:41
7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2018/03/21 14:03:06
Subject: Power level points comparison
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Douglas Bader
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Jidmah wrote:Because 1000 PL of imperials are not going to lose to 50 PL of nids, unless you brought nothing but manticores.
You don't need power levels to figure that out. Even dumping an equal amount of models on the table is sufficient. "Well, the IG side has four 'big models' and ~50 infantry, let's give the Tyranids four big ones and ~50 little ones and call it a day". Why do you need the extra detail of adding up power levels?
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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