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Chess clocks
Yes, finally
Not really that concerned about it
No, it's stupid

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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So now that the ITC is offically going to be supporting chess clocks how does everyone feel about it? Will you be practicing w/them when you practice for tournament, will you be asking for them at upcoming tournaments?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

I think chess clocks work great in chess because each turn is very distinct. If its your turn its your turn, you don't need anything at all from your opponent during that turn, your opponent makes no action, makes no choices nor does anything to the game table.

As such each turn is totally distinct from the other.


In Wargames and Warhammer though each turn is still, in part, a conversation between two players. The player who's turn it is does the leading and the bulk of actions, but the opponent can still have a huge impact.

They get to react to attack via dice rolls - ok sure that's not long so that's ok to leave on the players clock

They get to make choices on abilities and remove dead units from attacks. Ok so they could take a while over this would you want to flick that back over their clock?!

They get to ask questions of your codex. You might have to prove how an ability works or the stats of a unit. Or even query a rule in the core game and how it interacts/works. Again this is another point where the opponent is causing a time-lag, yet its counting against the active players turn time on the clock.


Another potential negative is that I can see it penalising large/swarm armies over smaller elite armies that are able to operate quicker by simple reduced model count.


I can see it working in terms of aiming to speed up turns and also punishing players who take too long with turns at the extreme end. I think that PP (warmachine) games have also made more extensive use of them so chances are some (all?) of the issues I've raised might be resolvable with guidelines; or might not be as important as one might suppose.
   
Made in au
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





IMO it's a stupid knee-jerk reaction to the LVO.

"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine."
- Typhus; Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive

5900 | 2000 | 6000 | 3650

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I played a lot of warmachine, including using chess clock. The mechanics of this works out well: If it's your turn, your clock is running. If your opponent is promptly resolving their effects as you are resolving your effects, no problem the clock can continue without incident. The moment anyone starts resolving slowly (and there is any suspicion of intentional slow play), the active player can flip the clock over to the opponent until they resolve their effects, at which point the clock reverts and the turn continues as normal.

Both players have the potential to abuse the system, so judges will have to be readily available to mediate and resolve any disputes about the matter. If WM/H tournaments are any indication though, such disputes are an exception to the norm.

Yes model counts are going to vary quite widely in 40k, just as they do in WM/H. I managed 50 model lists in 1 hour deathclocks decently with some practice, it shouldn't be that different if the clock goes to 1 hour 30 minutes to account for the higher model count. The precision necessary in WM/H is also not at all required in 40k as far as movement goes, so it shouldn't be that big a deal.
   
Made in us
Member of the Malleus




Judging by all the people worried about chess clocks and ITC's guidelines for using them, roughly half of Dakka usually has winning records on day 2, or is playing in the top 8. Guess there's a lot of top tier competitors lurking here, eh?
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




for as long as I've played warhammer there has always been at least one person at any given tournament or event that complains about the amount of time their opponent took. Chess clocks are the simplest and fairest way to end the "slow play" issue once and for all. I also suspect that you will have fewer people jumping to the new hot build of the week to remain competitive because you won't be able to spend half the game looking up rules. This should also lead to fewer people playing rules wrong as it will openly encourage you to bring an army you know so you can play efficiently with your time.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




This FLGs prototype i believe and from what I read it seems like a pretty good idea for real competitive games. I think early on in tournaments it may put of some of the just there for fun people but if TOs introduces them more for the final tables it will make the real competitive players happier.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2018/03/07/open-source-chess-clock-rules-for-warhammer-40k-tournaments/
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




Norfolk, VA

 NurglesR0T wrote:
IMO it's a stupid knee-jerk reaction to the LVO.

More than that, it’s a refusal to consider that 3 times per turn scoring, points values, or even the BCP app crashing round 1 and 3 might be a cause, and instead blames the player base for “slow play”

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It makes a lot more sense in a game like Kings of War where it’s your turn it’s just your turn. Not much for your opponent to do so it’s really just on you to actually just go. 40k is probably not a Great system for it, but at this point something needs to be done. If it means more games go a few more rounds I think it’s only to the positive. I think of it as the lesser of two evils.

Of course they could just stop trying to make a game not designed for a tight tournament setting into one in the first place.
   
Made in us
Walking Dead Wraithlord






I think it's a good idea. It's not the best idea (as that hasn't been discovered yet) but it's better than any of the other alternatives.

It will also force people to adjust their army lists accordingly.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Looking for the Rest of the II Legion

Never a bad idea to get prepped if that’s the way it’s going to be from now on.

"My friend, you would not tell with such high zest, to children ardent for some desperate glory the old lie, Dulce et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori."
Grey Knights ~ 3500, Fully Painted =][= Space Wolves ~ 4000, Fully Painted =][= Prosperine Exiles ~ WIP =][= Altian Wraiths ~ WIP
 
   
Made in au
Jovial Plaguebearer of Nurgle





 Elbows wrote:
I think it's a good idea. It's not the best idea (as that hasn't been discovered yet) but it's better than any of the other alternatives.

It will also force people to adjust their army lists accordingly.


It would require some serious thought to get it to work. Overread surmised the possible issues quite well.

"Look upon me and know that I can slay you at will. You have no defence save one: to look into the darkness at the back of your own mind. There, you will find Father Nurgle waiting to offer you life in return for your submission. Deny him, and you are mine."
- Typhus; Herald of Nurgle, Host of the Destroyer Hive

5900 | 2000 | 6000 | 3650

 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





If you're playing a tournament, it's expected to adhere to the time limit set for those type of matches.

That said, I would only expect such from a Tourny setting. My gaming group is stuck on 2000 pt games, and we barely ever have time to complete them.
   
Made in us
Powerful Ushbati





East Bay, Ca, US

It's something I think that's good to practice with.

If it turns out to be awful, no harm no foul. This is not mandatory.

To compute the probability of a specific outcome on N DK dice, use the generating function F= (x+ x^2 + x^3 + . . . + x^k-1 + x^k)^n

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy.
How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

 
   
Made in ca
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






I bet this boosts the sales of movement trays for 40K.

It's bad for horde lists, good for alpha strike and gunline lists. Maybe tournaments will consider a lower overall point total, it really depends on how many people run out clocks in the first few tournaments.

   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 greyknight12 wrote:
 NurglesR0T wrote:
IMO it's a stupid knee-jerk reaction to the LVO.

More than that, it’s a refusal to consider that 3 times per turn scoring, points values, or even the BCP app crashing round 1 and 3 might be a cause, and instead blames the player base for “slow play”


Curiously players were able to speed up 3x speed when judge was next to them enforcing time limit though...Hmmm...Curious. Can't score fast without judge next to you but when he comes magically gain ability to it.

Hopefully tournaments also drop point levels as well though. 2k short of 3h is just silly

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 07:16:02


“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

8100 pts
5150 pts
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




As a casual player I wouldn't ever use them. For tournaments I can see the appeal. But are you going to hit it every time your opponent needs to make saves? Then again for his ignore wound saves? What about for Deny the Witch rolls? 40k is a game where even on your turn your opponent can run down a timer.
   
Made in it
Longtime Dakkanaut




I don't like chess clocks for 40k, that said, i'm not influenced by it.
Luckily in my area ITC is non existent. CA missions are (IMHO) much better.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Norway.

OhhYeah! Equal playing time for both players!
No more 1hour opponent first turns on both players time. Or at least when it happens, it happens on my opponent's time, not mine.

I can't see how this in anyway is a bad thing. Organizing and throwing dice takes way more time than moving troops anyway, so not feeling it much for horde armies.

-Wibe. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




WE've been practising with them since the LVO in my area and are going to be running a 'speed' 40k event in a couple of weeks. Short clocks and 4 rounds in a day instead of 3.

I'm liking them and it is speeding up play. Tending to find people become more aware of the clock and we are having mroe games conclude naturally than by time limit which is the point afterall.

I'm finding it easier to play relaxed on it; not bothering to flip the clock for every little thing. SO long as your opponent rolls their saves in a timely manner they do it on my clock and vice versa helps really remove the clocking constantly issue and keeps it flowing nicely.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




UK

 John Prins wrote:
I bet this boosts the sales of movement trays for 40K.


Thing is with terrain and close combat I really don't see how movement trays helps 40K. They worked great in fantasy because your units had to remain in formation for the majority to the whole of the game. So the terrain, movement, combat - everything worked with the trays naturally.
Meanwhile in 40K if you move around you might go from a block to a line or a wibbly wobbly shape as you move around a building; or you might find that you're going into close combat and suddenly groups of units are circling around others.

I've seen a few nifty "trays" that seem to work on some kind of individual edge hinge, but even then at times you want to either bunch up or spread out your models.

I just can't visualise how trays would help things beyond perhaps the first one or two turns of the game, and then you'd have to faff around removing models from the trays.
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Wibe wrote:

I can't see how this in anyway is a bad thing. Organizing and throwing dice takes way more time than moving troops anyway, so not feeling it much for horde armies.


And guess which armies tends to roll more dice? Army with 20 model or army with 200 dice.

If tournament organizers still try to run 2k games in 2-2.5h might just as well ban horde armies.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

8100 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Fully-charged Electropriest





Justyn wrote:
As a casual player I wouldn't ever use them. For tournaments I can see the appeal. But are you going to hit it every time your opponent needs to make saves? Then again for his ignore wound saves? What about for Deny the Witch rolls? 40k is a game where even on your turn your opponent can run down a timer.


The post on FLG discussing it deals with this sensibly - if your opponent is ready and rolls saves/deny/whatever promptly, don't pass the clock. If they take more than a reasonable amount of time, then they do it on their time.



“Do not ask me to approach the battle meekly, to creep through the shadows, or to quietly slip on my foes in the dark. I am Rogal Dorn, Imperial Fist, Space Marine, Emperor’s Champion. Let my enemies cower at my advance and tremble at the sight of me.”
-Rogal Dorn
 
   
Made in fi
Fixture of Dakka





 Overread wrote:

I just can't visualise how trays would help things beyond perhaps the first one or two turns of the game, and then you'd have to faff around removing models from the trays.


Well 8th ed is 2 turn game anyway so that would not be that bad. After 2 turns theres generally not much left to move anyway!

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

8100 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in ie
Calm Celestian





I think a lot of.people who critisize chess clocks have never actually used them.

At high level play passing the clock for your opponents reactive dice rolls like saving throws becomes second nature after a while so its not a big deal. It also makes the game a lot more tense in the closing stages.

   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Norway.

tneva82 wrote:
 Wibe wrote:

I can't see how this in anyway is a bad thing. Organizing and throwing dice takes way more time than moving troops anyway, so not feeling it much for horde armies.


And guess which armies tends to roll more dice? Army with 20 model or army with 200 dice.

If tournament organizers still try to run 2k games in 2-2.5h might just as well ban horde armies.


Moving is already fast after you have decided where to go, and even faster with, say 5man movement trays. Making a 30boys units a 6 model unit.
And shaving of time when it comes to throwing and organizing dice is doable, and when you start to prepare it goes way faster.
When it comes to dices, having a dice container with 50 dice of one color, one with 20/10etc. then adding/removing to it when you attack saves a lot of time.
When people start planning ahead, games will start to run a lot faster.

My DeathGuard army got tons of rerolls, and extra save rolls. They throw a lot of dice, yet I find this change to be purely positive.

-Wibe. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Even if you're opposed to chess clocks, I can't see how this is bad because the one thing we don't really have at the moment is any real data about their effect on games of 40k under tournament conditions. Now we'll have that and can discuss things from an informed point of view.

From the look of the initial rules I think they're maybe a bit too complicated and could do with streamlining. The rules for not resolving an assault seem a bit pointless, for example. I get what they're trying to achieve, I just don't think it's needed. Similarly, I'd rather see an instant loss with full points scored for the opponent for remaining turns if you run out of time, just to make things easier.

Finally, I still think tournament points limits need looking at, and perhaps the time allocated to each game too but chess clocks are apparently the least controversial option to implement first.
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




In principle I'd love to play with a chess-clock, but I don't think the phasing-structure of 40k lends it well to chess-clock usage. Specifically I think the way a defending player will pick casualties and roll armour saves when an attacker rolls to wound is problematic. Regards
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Been practicing with them as a method of improving my game-play since 8th dropped. They work great. Especially when you approach them the right way (where it is your right but not your duty to see the time managed evenly). I rarely pass to my opponent when he's making less than 10 saves, only if its more than that or if he's activating in combat do I pass on my turn.

I play a large model count horde army (chaos) and I've never had any issues with Chess Clocks. I do several things to speed up my play as well (multiple separate pre-counted pools of dice, movement trays, etc). Ultimately I feel like I've gotten more 'fair share' of time using clocks than I ever did without them. Personally I'm excited about the adoption of the process.
   
Made in ie
Calm Celestian





pismakron wrote:
In principle I'd love to play with a chess-clock, but I don't think the phasing-structure of 40k lends it well to chess-clock usage. Specifically I think the way a defending player will pick casualties and roll armour saves when an attacker rolls to wound is problematic. Regards


It works like this:
Attacker on clock
Rolls hits and wounds
"Your unit takes this many wounds."
Switches clock to opponent
Defender rolls saves and removes casualties on his time
Switches clock back to attacker.


It literally amounts to pressing a button when you're not doibg something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/09 15:57:33


   
 
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