Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The stratgems to purchase relics says use before the battle. When is this?
If I am playing Ig and have Grand strategist. Is possible to gain my command points back?

Is deployment before the battle?

If you don't deploy before the battle, well, you're not gonna put up much of a fight. ;-)

Re: first bit, no official guidance AFAIK, except you could take the Custodes FAQ as precedent. Their similar 'Moment Shackle' ability only works after the Warlord is deployed on the battlefield. You could infer that applies here too, or just agree how it works with your opponent.

Lets say I spend a command point to infiltrate some styggies 8 unit.
If my opponent was playing thousand sons could he immediately use his stratagem to pick up helm of the third eye and try gaining a command point. Could I do the same and pick up kurzovs aqullia ?

most tournies make you spend the CP when you build the list.

granted thiis is probably just to make bookkeeping easier.

I'd say you couldn't spend a CP to get an extra relic after an opponent's ability has been played and try to generate CPs from that opponent's ability. You'd need the Relic already chosen to be able to farm CPs with it. Doing it after the fact doesn't work.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
I'd say you couldn't spend a CP to get an extra relic after an opponent's ability has been played and try to generate CPs from that opponent's ability. You'd need the Relic already chosen to be able to farm CPs with it. Doing it after the fact doesn't work.

This is correct, if you spend the command point in response as it were then you didn't have the relic at the time the CP was spent.

Don't Ultramarines players generally use their warlord trait to get back the CP from upgrading a chapter master?

There is 0 consistency on it, I've seen it played both ways in multiple tournaments.

I think the most reasonable assumption is to figure that you spend the CP on relics outside of the game so you have no opportunity to recover this CP.

Perhaps it'll be answered in the big FAQ?

In short, we don't know. You have to decide it pre game, every game until GW fixes it.

New scenario.

My opponent says he playing chaos. So i set up my warlord with grand strategist. Then before deployment is finished i spend a command point to buy Relic of Cadia which was conveniently located in a random officers pocket.

So i get a chance to get my command point back.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
New scenario.

My opponent says he playing chaos. So i set up my warlord with grand strategist. Then before deployment is finished i spend a command point to buy Relic of Cadia which was conveniently located in a random officers pocket.

So i get a chance to get my command point back.

Depends on what you think "Use this strategem before the battle" means...

If that means during deployment, then sure. But if before the battle means before you are at the table, during list creation, then you can't.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
New scenario.

My opponent says he playing chaos. So i set up my warlord with grand strategist. Then before deployment is finished i spend a command point to buy Relic of Cadia which was conveniently located in a random officers pocket.

So i get a chance to get my command point back.

I don't think it works like that. The stratagem says "Use this Stratagem before the battle."

Deployment isn't part of the turn structure but very much part of the battle.

So should I spend it before we determine deployment

Or

What is a "battle" when does ur start.

Why is this so complicated

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
So should I spend it before we determine deployment

Or

What is a "battle" when does ur start.

Why is this so complicated

Because it isn't well defined therefore all we have is interpretations, and those can vary. Discuss with your opponent.

With this

STRATEGIC DISCIPLINE
The same Stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than
once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’.

Its common knowledge that you styggies 8 infiltrate as much as you want as long as you spend the command points.

Is buying relics different?

Interestingly the Only War mission wording seems to define the "battle" to just be that which takes place during battle rounds. Don't have my BRB to hand to check wording on others.

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:
Is buying relics different?

Yes, the relic one is used "before the battle" while Strike from the Shadows, Forward Operatives etc are used "during deployment."

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:


Is buying relics different?

Yes, the relic stratagems all say "You may only use this once per battle."

The stragegum for extra relics all have a can only be used once caveat.

Convention is relics are part of your list and hence you can not use warloard traits or relics to refund the CP's.

As for outflank or infiltrate stratageums, it's treated the same as an ability. You can not use grand strategist or kurovs aquila if the model with the ability is not deployed on the table.

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:


Is buying relics different?

Yes, the relic stratagems all say "You may only use this once per battle."

Not the point.

I could use three different detachments and buy relics for all.


I can show you in Rule book where it says you must choose your warlord during list creation (when you write it down)

I can't show you when a battle begins.
When choosing relics even the free one it says "before the battle begins"

But I don't think you can get points back due to this blurb on psykers.
If a psyker generates their powers before the battle,
do so immediately before either player starts to deploy their army.

But still not sure after I see your playing chaos I can't just bust a cp to pick up the relic of cadia. Or other things before we actually see who is doing what.

What your describing is tailoring after seeing the other guys list.
In a pick up game you would get away with it but most people would see tailoring after you see the other players list, as TFG behaviour.

In tournaments they make you declair them on your list which is submitted in advance to make people play a consistant army.

Ice_can wrote:
What your describing is tailoring after seeing the other guys list.
In a pick up game you would get away with it but most people would see tailoring after you see the other players list, as TFG behaviour.

In tournaments they make you declair them on your list which is submitted in advance to make people play a consistant army.

TO's can also ban all purple models and decree that rolls of 6 actually count as 1's. What a TO house rules has no bearing on what the rules actually say, and barring a single mention regarding psychic powers, it's not clear when "Before the battle" ends.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
What your describing is tailoring after seeing the other guys list.
In a pick up game you would get away with it but most people would see tailoring after you see the other players list, as TFG behaviour.

In tournaments they make you declair them on your list which is submitted in advance to make people play a consistant army.

TO's can also ban all purple models and decree that rolls of 6 actually count as 1's. What a TO house rules has no bearing on what the rules actually say, and barring a single mention regarding psychic powers, it's not clear when "Before the battle" ends.

Hence why I said in a pick up game he would get away with it.
I say that because your rep is kind of important, most people won't want to play someone with a bad rep.
It's not against the rules but do you want the rep as the guy that list tailors after seeing your opponents army?

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:


Is buying relics different?

Yes, the relic stratagems all say "You may only use this once per battle."

Not the point.

I could use three different detachments and buy relics for all.

It's the answer to the question you asked that I quoted.

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:

Ulfhednar_42 wrote:

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:


Is buying relics different?

Yes, the relic stratagems all say "You may only use this once per battle."

Not the point.

I could use three different detachments and buy relics for all.

It's the answer to the question you asked that I quoted.

And i could prolly argue that since it is before the battle i can do it how ever many times i want.

The stratagems say once per battle. But are used before the battle begins. So since no battle is being battled yet i can keep using it.

(Obvious nonsense)

You answered a question that no one asked or needed to because the answer is obvious.

Not once did anyome ask or say can I use the buy relic stratagem multiple times!!!

Asking how it was different was implicit in the conversation of its used before a battle or phase or other term.

Saying duh dummy you can only use it once is actually funny lol.

But i digress.

List tailoring? Yeah you can call it that. But if the question is not asked then how do we find the answers. I thought i missed something. But gw never actually tells us what a battle is and when it begins.

If the battle begins at list creation then the stratgems go into paradox because you can't use them since you are already in the "battle"

If its after list creation but before deployment then you can certainly "tailor" your relics to your opponent.

If its at ANY TIME before the first battle round (ie deployment) then there is a possibility to regain command points or to steal them.

But i have no idea. So talk with opponent. Discuss with tos got it.

The commander with the trait or relic must be on the table for you to be able to use its ability, also means that you couldn't use it if your warlord is embarked in a vehical or fortification.

I fail to see how this helps the quandary I am faced with.

You asked out using abilities for aquiring CP's

If you haven't placed the model on the board you can't use its abilities. So if your grand strategist warloard hasn't been deployed when you use the strategum for outflanking etc you can't use grand strategist to refund the CP's likewise if the model holding the aquila isn't on the table you can't steel CP's.

If this wasn't your question you really need to explain the situation and what it is your trying to ask.

He's asking if you can retroactively claim a CP gain roll if you buy a "CP-gain" relic AFTER an opponent has used a pre-game Stratagem.

That's a hard no, you can't use a relic that you don't yet have, and if you add it to your army after an opponent has used a Stratagem it wasn't there to be triggered.

In terms of "what is 'before the battle?' I think it's everything up to the start of the first battle round, based on the wording of missions.