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2018/03/16 17:03:56
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Hi, My friend runs 3 stormhawk interceptors in his army, a couple of times when we have been playing his models have moved and he hasn't been fully on the board, we are talking like 50% off, is this allowed or does he have to be fully on?
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2018/03/16 17:15:45
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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I would class this as off. Assuming you mean base not hull.
In the same rule that if he stops 50% off the board. When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
I would call out schenanigans here and tell them they owe me a beer for trying to pull that stunt.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:26:52
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2018/03/16 17:15:48
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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40k 8th ed rulebook wrote:Minimum Move
Some models that can Fly have a Move characteristic consisting of two values. The first is the model’s minimum speed – in the Movement phase, all parts of the model’s base must end the move at least that far from where they started. The second is its maximum speed – no part of the model’s base can be moved further than this. If a model cannot make its minimum move, or is forced to move off the battlefield because of its minimum speed, it is destroyed and removed from the battlefield
(Emphasis mine)
If you are forced to move off the battlefield that model is destroyed.
You can not voluntarily leave the battlefield.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
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2018/03/16 17:17:29
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I'm not sure that the rules ever define what exactly it means to be "on the battlefield", or even that they say that in general models aren't allowed to move off of it (though flyers that are forced to move off of it are destroyed). There's probably a RAW case to be made that as long as any part of the model's base is on the battlefield, it's on the battlefield, since that's how everything else like this works -- you're in cover if any part of your base is in cover, etc.
That said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone allow any part of a model's base to extend beyond the table edges. Conversely, most people are fine with parts of a model that don't count for measuring distance extending over the table edge, and this would apply to a flyer's wings and the like.
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2018/03/16 17:18:00
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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Only the base has to be on the battlefield imho.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:18:22
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2018/03/16 17:21:12
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Dionysodorus wrote:I'm not sure that the rules ever define what exactly it means to be "on the battlefield", or even that they say that in general models aren't allowed to move off of it (though flyers that are forced to move off of it are destroyed). There's probably a RAW case to be made that as long as any part of the model's base is on the battlefield, it's on the battlefield, since that's how everything else like this works -- you're in cover if any part of your base is in cover, etc.
That said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone allow any part of a model's base to extend beyond the table edges. Conversely, most people are fine with parts of a model that don't count for measuring distance extending over the table edge, and this would apply to a flyer's wings and the like.
Why would the wings on a plane not count? They're part of the model and I think most of the flyers in the game tell us to measure to and from the hull instead of the base.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:22:09
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2018/03/16 17:22:42
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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nekooni wrote:Dionysodorus wrote:I'm not sure that the rules ever define what exactly it means to be "on the battlefield", or even that they say that in general models aren't allowed to move off of it (though flyers that are forced to move off of it are destroyed). There's probably a RAW case to be made that as long as any part of the model's base is on the battlefield, it's on the battlefield, since that's how everything else like this works -- you're in cover if any part of your base is in cover, etc.
That said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone allow any part of a model's base to extend beyond the table edges. Conversely, most people are fine with parts of a model that don't count for measuring distance extending over the table edge, and this would apply to a flyer's wings and the like.
Why would the wings on a plane not count? They're part of the model.
They don't actually count for measuring distance to and from the model, though, since you measure distance to flyers from their base. I'm just saying: I've never seen anyone object that a dude's sword is sticking out over the table edge.
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2018/03/16 17:23:18
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Dionysodorus wrote:nekooni wrote:Dionysodorus wrote:I'm not sure that the rules ever define what exactly it means to be "on the battlefield", or even that they say that in general models aren't allowed to move off of it (though flyers that are forced to move off of it are destroyed). There's probably a RAW case to be made that as long as any part of the model's base is on the battlefield, it's on the battlefield, since that's how everything else like this works -- you're in cover if any part of your base is in cover, etc.
That said, I don't think I have ever seen anyone allow any part of a model's base to extend beyond the table edges. Conversely, most people are fine with parts of a model that don't count for measuring distance extending over the table edge, and this would apply to a flyer's wings and the like.
Why would the wings on a plane not count? They're part of the model.
They don't actually count for measuring distance to and from the model, though, since you measure distance to flyers from their base. I'm just saying: I've never seen anyone object that a dude's sword is sticking out over the table edge.
Sorry, I edited afterwards: They're part of the model and I think most of the flyers in the game tell us to measure to and from the hull instead of the base - or am I getting that wrong?
*edited again* looks like I was wrong, I just assumed you'd use the hull.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 17:24:54
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2018/03/16 18:00:03
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Preacher of the Emperor
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SeanDavid1991 wrote:When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
Are you saying if you surround a flyer with models with jump packs it can't move? It pivots and moves over them like any other model. It has fly.
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2018/03/16 18:13:27
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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deviantduck wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
Are you saying if you surround a flyer with models with jump packs it can't move? It pivots and moves over them like any other model. It has fly.
For some reason people think Pivoting isn't part of the move, when it literally says that it is in the rule.
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2018/03/16 20:54:06
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Preacher of the Emperor
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BaconCatBug wrote: deviantduck wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
Are you saying if you surround a flyer with models with jump packs it can't move? It pivots and moves over them like any other model. It has fly.
For some reason people think Pivoting isn't part of the move, when it literally says that it is in the rule.
Very true. I was just wondering why he thought jump packs made a difference. Like Fly cancels Fly or something.
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2018/03/16 21:50:51
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Focused Dark Angels Land Raider Pilot
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deviantduck wrote: BaconCatBug wrote: deviantduck wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
Are you saying if you surround a flyer with models with jump packs it can't move? It pivots and moves over them like any other model. It has fly.
For some reason people think Pivoting isn't part of the move, when it literally says that it is in the rule.
Very true. I was just wondering why he thought jump packs made a difference. Like Fly cancels Fly or something.
Very situational this but say your flyer is facing towards board edge 10" away, and your fly has minimum 20" move, and you need to pivot left or right to face on board to move, if youve been surrounded by jump packs which have fly, your cant successfully pivot amd thus fly straight off board and into a mountain.
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2018/03/16 21:56:23
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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SeanDavid1991 wrote: deviantduck wrote: BaconCatBug wrote: deviantduck wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:When he rotates whole base is not on. Just as is the flyer is completely surrounded by units with jumppacks.
Are you saying if you surround a flyer with models with jump packs it can't move? It pivots and moves over them like any other model. It has fly.
For some reason people think Pivoting isn't part of the move, when it literally says that it is in the rule.
Very true. I was just wondering why he thought jump packs made a difference. Like Fly cancels Fly or something.
Very situational this but say your flyer is facing towards board edge 10" away, and your fly has minimum 20" move, and you need to pivot left or right to face on board to move, if youve been surrounded by jump packs which have fly, your cant successfully pivot amd thus fly straight off board and into a mountain.
Except you can, because as posted in this and other threads the pivot is part of their move, and as FLY models can move as if other models weren't there nothing prevents them pivoting. They just pivot and move right over the "surrounding" unit. Fly doesn't cancel Fly.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/16 21:57:41
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/03/16 22:16:56
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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SeanDavid1991 wrote:Very situational this but say your flyer is facing towards board edge 10" away, and your fly has minimum 20" move, and you need to pivot left or right to face on board to move, if youve been surrounded by jump packs which have fly, your cant successfully pivot amd thus fly straight off board and into a mountain.
This is not true in the slightest. Models with FLY don't stop other models with FLY moving over them. Where did you get that idea? BRB Page 177 wrote:If the datasheet for a model says it can FLY, it can move across models and terrain as if they were not there.
That is the entire rule regarding what FLY does.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/16 22:18:19
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2018/03/17 10:02:09
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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The rules dont define when a flyer is off the battlefield. We simply dont know if 0,1" of the wing, or the base, over the edge of the battlefield, is enough for the flyer to be off the battlefield.
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2018/03/17 13:38:41
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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p5freak wrote:The rules dont define when a flyer is off the battlefield. We simply dont know if 0,1" of the wing, or the base, over the edge of the battlefield, is enough for the flyer to be off the battlefield.
No they don't. Decades of war gaming convention that don't allow models hanging off tables is what most people operate under, I'd wager.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/03/18 03:58:38
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Preacher of the Emperor
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It goes by the flyer's base. As long as the base is 100% on the table, the model is on the battlefield.
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2018/03/18 04:40:11
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Douglas Bader
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JohnnyHell wrote:No they don't. Decades of war gaming convention that don't allow models hanging off tables is what most people operate under, I'd wager.
No such convention exists. In fact, there's long-established convention that the opposite is true: that only the base counts, and pieces of the model can hang over the edge of the table without penalty. Automatically Appended Next Post: SeanDavid1991 wrote:Very situational this but say your flyer is facing towards board edge 10" away, and your fly has minimum 20" move, and you need to pivot left or right to face on board to move, if youve been surrounded by jump packs which have fly, your cant successfully pivot amd thus fly straight off board and into a mountain.
And this very nicely sums up the idiocy of 8th edition.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/18 04:40:49
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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2018/03/18 05:10:56
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Daemonic Dreadnought
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I've always played it that the entire base has to be on the table. That's the rule in my local meta.
The one time I've seen a model be able to be partly off the board is with scenery. Even then, models on the ramparts were required to be within the table edge.
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2018/03/18 09:50:54
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Peregrine wrote: JohnnyHell wrote:No they don't. Decades of war gaming convention that don't allow models hanging off tables is what most people operate under, I'd wager.
No such convention exists. In fact, there's long-established convention that the opposite is true: that only the base counts, and pieces of the model can hang over the edge of the table without penalty.
I meant the base, so it does exist as a convention and we agree. Automatically Appended Next Post: deviantduck wrote:It goes by the flyer's base. As long as the base is 100% on the table, the model is on the battlefield.
Agreed; not hard-coded in the current rules, just decades of convention.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/18 10:05:59
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/03/18 13:30:48
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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Peregrine wrote: SeanDavid1991 wrote:Very situational this but say your flyer is facing towards board edge 10" away, and your fly has minimum 20" move, and you need to pivot left or right to face on board to move, if youve been surrounded by jump packs which have fly, your cant successfully pivot amd thus fly straight off board and into a mountain.
And this very nicely sums up the idiocy of 8th edition.
No, it doesn't, because SeanDavid1991 is 100% wrong.
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2018/03/18 14:09:42
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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Just as an aside is there a flyer that can't hover that has the supersonic rule? Otherwise just hover and change your facing. Problem solved.
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2018/03/18 14:11:56
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Just as an aside is there a flyer that can't hover that has the supersonic rule? Otherwise just hover and change your facing. Problem solved.
Plenty of them. Most of them, in fact. Not everything is the Valkyrie you know.
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2018/03/18 16:53:20
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Leo_the_Rat wrote:Just as an aside is there a flyer that can't hover that has the supersonic rule? Otherwise just hover and change your facing. Problem solved.
Xiphon interceptor.
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2018/03/19 17:15:45
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Preacher of the Emperor
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p5freak wrote:The rules dont define when a flyer is off the battlefield. We simply dont know if 0,1" of the wing, or the base, over the edge of the battlefield, is enough for the flyer to be off the battlefield.
Except the rules define it and we do know if it's on the battlefield.
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.
All measuring for movement revolves around the base of the model. (unless the model has no base but this doesn't apply to flyers). If the base is 100% on the battlefield, it is on the battlefield. The flyers wings and hull have no bearing on its movement or location.
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2018/03/19 19:41:26
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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deviantduck wrote: p5freak wrote:The rules dont define when a flyer is off the battlefield. We simply dont know if 0,1" of the wing, or the base, over the edge of the battlefield, is enough for the flyer to be off the battlefield.
Except the rules define it and we do know if it's on the battlefield.
Distances in Warhammer 40,000 are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such is the case with many vehicles, measure to and from the closest point of that model’s hull instead. You can measure distances whenever you wish.
All measuring for movement revolves around the base of the model. (unless the model has no base but this doesn't apply to flyers). If the base is 100% on the battlefield, it is on the battlefield. The flyers wings and hull have no bearing on its movement or location.
That\s the assumption. But there's difference between being on the battlefield and being fully on the battlefield. GW being GW they couldn't define which is required clearly.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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2018/03/19 19:45:49
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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This is the same GW that forgot to restrict you to deploying in your own deployment zone, so I don't know what people expected. Let's hope the March FAQ bonanza is good.
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2018/03/20 06:58:51
Subject: Flyers and the edge of the board
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Regular Dakkanaut
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So Space Marine on 25mm base with both hands and cap off the base (who has his arms spread, like pointig on something with giant sword in other hand, and cape raised) is considered being on battlefield when his base is on battlefield or his sword?
And while checking for cover, do you consider base or hand within terrain piece?
Come on it's base all the way (or hull if rules forces us to measure from hull).
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2018/03/20 07:11:25
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Thats HYWPI, not RAW. The rules dont say that the base, or a model with no base, must be 100% on the battlefield.
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2018/03/20 08:27:22
Subject: Re:Flyers and the edge of the board
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Norn Queen
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p5freak wrote: Thats HYWPI, not RAW. The rules dont say that the base, or a model with no base, must be 100% on the battlefield.
The rules also don't define that a D6 has to be marked 1-6, or that the D6 has to be fair, or what the term "roll" means. There is a level of unspoken, assumed axioms that the game relies on to be playable whatsoever. That is not "bad RaW", it's simply how reality works.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 08:28:21
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