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Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





West Yorkshire

So I was looking at a way to make Battlesuits work as an alpha strike unit and came up with this, wanted to garner peoples opinions.
(BTW, this only works for farsight enclaves)

Units required:

9 battlesuits in reserve. Load all weapons, either Fusion blasters or Cyclic Ion Blasters appear to work well depending on Situation.
1 Commander in reserve. (Loadout largely redundant for this consideration)
Markerlight support (Fireblades and marksman seem to be good for this)

The idea is that you drop in the Crisis suits in a line along wherever you want to fire. Bring in Commander behind within 6 inches.
(Apply Dropzone clear whenever the stratagem needs to be activated for timing)

During shooting phase, use your markerlight support to paint your targets for the crisis suit, aim for 1 per unit for the reroll 1's.
before you shoot the crisis suits, have the commander declare Command and Control Node Stratagem.

Your Crisis suits are now hitting on 3's reroll 1's (With no chance of mortal wounds from CIB overcharge) and also benefit from rerolls to wound to ensure maximum damage capability.

It's damn expensive clocking in at around 900pts for the suits with fusion blasters (At it's most expensive version) before considering anything else and requiring 3 command points but do people think it could be useful depending on situation? Would it be better to mix and match weapons?

5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I think the biggest issue is that if you go second what keeps the rest of your support on the table? Losing those marker lights will hurt and a melee alpha might tie up a lot of them.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 17:42:30


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Crisis suits have become what Inceptors are.

Surgicall strike units that you use against the targets that are worth it.

Before they where used as the core of an army, without any kind of care of positioning with JSJ, killing anything they wanted without retaliation.


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?


Inceptors are a more viable anti-horde deepstrike choice than plasma scions with a smaller footprint.
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Going a full 9 Crisis suits is probably putting too many eggs in one basket. I'd probably go for 4-6, depending on game size. This leaves enough room to round out the rest of your army.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I agree - their bolter loadout is much better than the plasma loadout.

Same is really true for crisis suits with burst cannons. 12 str 5 shots for under 70 points is not that bad. Problem is str 5 is fething everywhere for tau and fire warriors are putting out 12 str 5 shots for 28 points with firewarriors under the fireblade buff.

A 10 man firewarrior has 30 str 5 shots for 70 points with a fireblade. Don't need the str 5 firepower from crisis suits at all.

Same can be said about inceptors with marines. bolter inceptors are reasonable priced for what they do you just don't need them to do what they do.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut






In a Trayzn pokeball

 Galas wrote:
Crisis suits have become what Inceptors are.

Surgicall strike units that you use against the targets that are worth it.

Before they where used as the core of an army, without any kind of care of positioning with JSJ, killing anything they wanted without retaliation.


Agreed.
A squad of three with three FB each is 315. That's gonna wipe a big nasty when it drops, but it's way too many points to consider taking more than one squad.
Also I think people really overrate the CIB, and it's only a few points less than the FB, so you're still paying 300 points to drop and kill cheap chaff (because it's not really worth targeting vehicles or anything tougher than MEQ), which is just not cost effective at all when you can get about 40 fire warriors for those 300 points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 19:51:13


 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The hobby is actually hating GW.
 iGuy91 wrote:
You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
 Elbows wrote:
You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote:
Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Xenomancers wrote:
I agree - their bolter loadout is much better than the plasma loadout.

Same is really true for crisis suits with burst cannons. 12 str 5 shots for under 70 points is not that bad. Problem is str 5 is fething everywhere for tau and fire warriors are putting out 12 str 5 shots for 28 points with firewarriors under the fireblade buff.

A 10 man firewarrior has 30 str 5 shots for 70 points with a fireblade. Don't need the str 5 firepower from crisis suits at all.

Same can be said about inceptors with marines. bolter inceptors are reasonable priced for what they do you just don't need them to do what they do.


I think it also depends on what missions you play. We play a lot of ITC here where Recon is a pretty commonly selected secondary so having Interceptors who can get into different quadrants can really help.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?


Well, for one, Tau don't have Scions.

Secondly, you stated that Crisis suits should have a 3+ where clearly they're outperforming marines who do have a 3+ so I don't see the basis for that.

And, third, scions need 5 models with rapid fire to equal one suit. That's 110 points. And they'll kill themselves without rerolls. And they don't have a 3+ armor save. And they aren't T5. But they do have 5 wounds total, soo...yea who would ever take suits?

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Plasma inceptors are not good. They might actually be worse than crisis suits. Outperforming them is nothing special.

If you could take a single crisis suit and drop it it wouldn't be terrible. You have to take 3 of them though. Which with good weapons is in the 300 point range.

At that price point you talking about defense being higher is nonsensicle. The unit is going to take dedicated anti tank and drop like conscripts to heavy bolters.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in nl
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?


Well, for one, Tau don't have Scions.

Secondly, you stated that Crisis suits should have a 3+ where clearly they're outperforming marines who do have a 3+ so I don't see the basis for that.

And, third, scions need 5 models with rapid fire to equal one suit. That's 110 points. And they'll kill themselves without rerolls. And they don't have a 3+ armor save. And they aren't T5. But they do have 5 wounds total, soo...yea who would ever take suits?



Well, to be fair Scions get an additional -2 AP on their guns, so it's important to take that into account as well. Then again, it's easier to get rid of Scions than Crisis suits, especially if they bring drones with them.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Pandabeer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?


Well, for one, Tau don't have Scions.

Secondly, you stated that Crisis suits should have a 3+ where clearly they're outperforming marines who do have a 3+ so I don't see the basis for that.

And, third, scions need 5 models with rapid fire to equal one suit. That's 110 points. And they'll kill themselves without rerolls. And they don't have a 3+ armor save. And they aren't T5. But they do have 5 wounds total, soo...yea who would ever take suits?



Well, to be fair Scions get an additional -2 AP on their guns, so it's important to take that into account as well. Then again, it's easier to get rid of Scions than Crisis suits, especially if they bring drones with them.


I could bring 20 scions with 8 plasma for the price of those suits. If they bring six drones, I could bring 25. Also scions are troops, have a smaller footprint, and are bs 3. I think it’s far harder to chew through an equivalent points worth of scions than crisis suits, especially since scions are less effected by anti tank guns pointed their way.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Pandabeer wrote:


Well, to be fair Scions get an additional -2 AP on their guns, so it's important to take that into account as well. Then again, it's easier to get rid of Scions than Crisis suits, especially if they bring drones with them.


Yea, that's fair. I expect plasma scions to go up in price as well - we'll see soon enough I suppose.

   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Pandabeer wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.

Inceptors aren't good ether though. Would you take ether of these units over plasma scions?


Well, for one, Tau don't have Scions.

Secondly, you stated that Crisis suits should have a 3+ where clearly they're outperforming marines who do have a 3+ so I don't see the basis for that.

And, third, scions need 5 models with rapid fire to equal one suit. That's 110 points. And they'll kill themselves without rerolls. And they don't have a 3+ armor save. And they aren't T5. But they do have 5 wounds total, soo...yea who would ever take suits?



Well, to be fair Scions get an additional -2 AP on their guns, so it's important to take that into account as well. Then again, it's easier to get rid of Scions than Crisis suits, especially if they bring drones with them.

Yeah - -3 AP is a big difference from -1 AP. Vs 3+ saves we are talking about 18% saves vs 50% saves. The difference is huge. If you run the comparison with meltas it gets even more silly.

For 104 points Scion command squad gets 4 bs 3+ meltas compared to 101 points for 3 bs 4+ fusions.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.


An inceptor with plasma exterminators is 81 points with D3 shots - 4 average.
A battlesuit with 3 CIB is 96 and 3 shots a piece.

So for 15 points more you get more 50% more shots and an extra wound, but BS4.

9 * .5 = 4.5
4 * .666 = 2.7

Nearly double output even at BS4. A little tougher. Worse in CC. Has markerlight backup, greater good, and other potential advantages.

There is no way they aren't worth it.


How in the world are you getting inceptor w/ 2x plasma exterminators it 81 pts? They've been 59 pts since chapter approved dropped in December. If you wanted to use CIB's as the crisis weapon, you're ignore the -1 ap it has vs the -3 from the inceptor plasma. A more fair comparison in points in 3 crisis with 3x CIB each to 5 inceptors with 2x plasma exterminators each. 295pts vs 288pts.

3x Crisis CIB non-overcharge.
Spoiler:


5x Inceptor non-overcharge
Spoiler:


As you can see, 5 Inceptors is better in every way except vs models with 6+ saves, as most of their AP is wasted. The inceptors have 10 wounds at T4 3+, the crisis has 9 wounds at T5 3+. The marines have rules for doing mortal wounds when charging and hit on 3's, vs crisis having nothing and hitting on 5's in melee. The only way the crisis are better is if they have 5+ marker lights on the target.


And for completions sake, here's the overcharged info.

3x Crisis CIB overcharged
Spoiler:


5x Inceptor overcharged
Spoiler:


EDIT: Link to the tool used for these graphs: Dice Hammer

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 21:02:07


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Jaxler wrote:


I could bring 20 scions with 8 plasma for the price of those suits. If they bring six drones, I could bring 25. Also scions are troops, have a smaller footprint, and are bs 3. I think it’s far harder to chew through an equivalent points worth of scions than crisis suits, especially since scions are less effected by anti tank guns pointed their way.


What drones are you using?

6 gun drones = 72
5 plasma scions = 110

Smaller base, but more models. The are of a 50mm circle is 1963. A 25 mm circle is 490. You get 4.4 scions per CIB suit, which is 2156.

The suit can fly and moves faster and will almost never suffer morale losses.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mulletdude wrote:


How in the world are you getting inceptor w/ 2x plasma exterminators it 81 pts?


I'll be damned. Plasma Exterminator is 17 now.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 21:11:03


 
   
Made in us
Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Mulletdude wrote:


How in the world are you getting inceptor w/ 2x plasma exterminators it 81 pts?


I'll be damned. Plasma Exterminator is 17 now.


Yup, they got way cheaper. Doesn't change the fact they're still pretty bad for their points, and they outperform crisis suits =\
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Xenomancers wrote:
crisis suits are too expensive - it still remains a problem. They should be bs 3+ already.

Yeah, let's devalue elite stats in another pointless, fluff breaking absurd power creep buff, eh?

Not only Tau should stay 4+, commanders need to return to 3+ and half of Eldar units that were used to be 4+ should go back to it too. If GW doesn't know what to do with SM, the centuries old veteran should have at least some edge over Eldar conscripts and half blind Tau rookies with barely any combat experience after their training, TYVM. They would still be better than SM, sooo...
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




By that logic guard vets &scions should be BS4+ and IS BS5+ and conscripts BS6+ as a marine has how year of training, experiance, tech and genetic modification over even a IG vet.
GW has Custodes as its new posterboys marines are trash and their stats haven't been worth squat since 4th edition.
Even GW had to admit they screwed up when they had to hand out 300 plus points of free stuff to make marines competitive in 7th. Shame they don't understand why, so haven't solved the problem.
   
Made in us
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Marine pity party Dakka is my favorite Dakka.
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





West Yorkshire

 Daedalus81 wrote:


What drones are you using?

6 gun drones = 72
5 plasma scions = 110



He's not adding 5 more plasma scions, he's keeping the 8 from the original post along with the basic scions and saying for the 6 drones you would add to the unit as chaff, he can add 5 more bodies to the Scion unit to soak up wounds before you start removing plasma dudes.

5000pts W4/ D0/ L5
5000pts W10/ D2/ L7
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Tristanleo wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


What drones are you using?

6 gun drones = 72
5 plasma scions = 110



He's not adding 5 more plasma scions, he's keeping the 8 from the original post along with the basic scions and saying for the 6 drones you would add to the unit as chaff, he can add 5 more bodies to the Scion unit to soak up wounds before you start removing plasma dudes.


It’s 74 for 5 scions, 2 with plasma. Those drones are 72.

For ten points more than three suits with drones and ion blasters, you can have 25 scions, 10 of which will be plasma. Now, which would you rather, 20 plasma shots hitting on 3s, able to reroll 1s, and generating extra shots on 6s, or 27 ion blaster shots at middling AP-1? Beyond higher firepower, scions have other bonuses, like being able to grab more objectives do to being smaller units, the benefits of being guard, being infantry and being troops all help them. Keep in mind, you also have 12 hotshot lasgun shots, which while not as spooky, can still kill a few marines.


Those 25 bodies all are probably comparable in resilient to the suits too, due to more easily getting cover, and being able to make multiwound damage effectively wasted when used at them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 08:23:33


 
   
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!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Farseer_V2 wrote:

Inceptors are a more viable anti-horde deepstrike choice than plasma scions with a smaller footprint.


They might be due to durability. Though keep in mind that plasma scions are still more point efficient in terms of damage output vs hordes than heavy bolter inceptors (those are bumblebees, right?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 09:49:19


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






"why does my deep strike unit compare unfavorably to plasma scions?"

"Why does my heavy weapons infantry compare unfavorably to dark reapers?"

"Why does my horde infantry compare unfavorably to Infantry squads?"

"Why does the game keep power creeping WTF GW fix this crap!"

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





the_scotsman wrote:
"why does my deep strike unit compare unfavorably to plasma scions?"

"Why does my heavy weapons infantry compare unfavorably to dark reapers?"

"Why does my horde infantry compare unfavorably to Infantry squads?"

"Why does the game keep power creeping WTF GW fix this crap!"


So much this.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Daedalus81 wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
"why does my deep strike unit compare unfavorably to plasma scions?"

"Why does my heavy weapons infantry compare unfavorably to dark reapers?"

"Why does my horde infantry compare unfavorably to Infantry squads?"

"Why does the game keep power creeping WTF GW fix this crap!"


So much this.



Scions aren’t OP, they just don’t pay for survivability they can’t use. Any unit that pays for one-two extra wounds and has a middling 3+ is overpriced because only invulns really seem to matter this edition.

Scions are good because they shoot how you want them to, have the right guns and don’t pay a high premium for useless stats that deepstrikers can’t use effectively. They land shoot and grab objectives. Extra movement range, wounds and armor are wasted on something that needs to just delete something the turn it arrives.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/20 17:33:39


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






I toyed around with taking a shield generator and 2 fusions/2CIB in the index tau on crisis suits. Net result - the same number of shots as a 4 cib commander at bs 4+ for more expensive than a 4 CIB commander.

Commander can't even be shot at.
Does more damage with the same priced weapons.
fills HQ requirement.

This is in general a problem with the game. You pay the same cost for a ranged weapon regardless of it's BS. It is a universal problem.

How do you fix it? Easy - you cost weapons based on their ability to hit. Otherwise a higher BS platform is always going to be the best option. You can also dramatically lower the price of options with worse BS to get the same effect.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
 
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