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Markerlights seem not so good. Not until you get 5 can they raise your BS. Ethereal gives you reroll 1s at ANYTHING. Pathfinders give you reroll, maybe.

1)Pathfinders bring incredible drone support and great special weapons.

2)A BS+ isn't all markerlights are good for.

3)Etherals have to stick in close range to potentially give their reroll 1s. Markerlights effect your entire army regardless of range.

But you have to HIT with them first. And not let your PFs get nuked in the processs

 doktor_g wrote:
But you have to HIT with them first. And not let your PFs get nuked in the processs

You have to hit with 1 to get reroll 1s for the rest of the unit and your entire army. Which is an average success rate with 2 models. Or 16 points.

So 16 points to give your entire army reroll 1s against the chosen target or 45 points to give units within 6" reroll 1s IF they don't move.

Plus... again. Pulse accelerator drones and others. Rail Rifles and Ion.

Pathfinders are not a good unit. They are a GREAT unit.

I honestly don't understand this post. Markerlights are absolutely amazing, they're really one of the key abilities that Tau have. And Pathfinders aren't the only (or best) source of Markerlights. Check out Tau stratagems and Sept tenets, as well as Cadre Fireblades and Firesight Marksman.

Running multiple Ethereals so you can give your whole army Storm of Fire is expensive, means you can't move anymore, and seriously limits your deployment options.

Thats right. Castled Tau surrounding Ethereal(s) is... Expensive?

Feel no Pain bubble 45 pts
Reroll 1s 45pts
Leadership Buff Free



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We'll see I will be running both today vs NewCrons. 2Ethereal 2 Cadre FBs, 2 Units of PFinders


Heres a list. 3 Detachments.

Battalion:
-CadreFireBlade
-CadreFireBlade
-5xFireWarriors
-5xFireWarriors
-5xFireWarriors
-5xFireWarriors
-5xPathFinders
-5xPathFinders

Spearhead:
-Ethereal
-2xBroadSides (HYMP, SMS)
-2xBroadSides (HYMP, SMS)
-2xBroadSides (RailRifle, SMS)

Vanguard:
-Ethereal (ShieldDr, PureTide)
-Riptide (HBC, SMS, TrgLk)
-Riptide (HBC, SMS, TrgLk)
-Riptide (HBC, SMS, TrgLk)

 doktor_g wrote:
Thats right. Castled Tau surrounding Ethereal(s) is... Expensive?

Feel no Pain bubble 45 pts
Reroll 1s 45pts

You only get 1 buff per Ethereal per turn. Can't choose both unless you take the incredibly overcosted Aun'va. They only apply to infantry and battlesuits, so no drones/tanks/Stormsurges. And yeah, a 45 point model is expensive because it's relative to a 25 or 42 point model carrying a ML, or 5 8-point infantry carrying MLs, who doesn't require your entire army to be blobbed up immobile within the 6" of the Ethereal. You should be picking out priority targets, getting 1 or 5 MLs on them, and firing your army at those targets until they aren't threatening anymore.

Ethereals aren't bad, I'm taking one in 2000 points myself, but they're mostly taken for the leadership buff and the 6+ FNP.

Yeah movement is good. That said, the Ethereal buffs are also pretty useful. The difficuly is really the opportunity cost, when commanders and fireblades feel so essential in your HQ slots.

I'd actually consider taking Aun Va in a gunline army, as the warlord. He's got the correct warlord trait (uniquely among tau special characters) and he allows morale rerolls too.

That's not to say you won't also want some markerlights of course. But yeah it's pretty handy to have an ethereal.

Take Pathfinders for the Ion Rifles. ML are overrated. And the drones are hardly incredible. You just shoot them first if they matter, ignore them if they don't. Most of the special drones are kind of silly.

Well. I played my first game with new Tau. They PUMMLED my opponents. It was 2v1 as they were practicing for a twin linked tourney. Ended up tabling Crons + Ravenguard with the above list. Maybe it was a LTP issue, but my original opinion of Pathfinders and Markerlights in general, has not changed. The ethereal reroll 1s was superior TODAY. Maybe not all the time. Admittedly trying to hit RavenGuard was a little frustrating, but even expending CPs to bring my perrenial 3 markers to 5 proved impossible. I will be reconsidering Markerlights. Still not as good as they used to be. Just my opinion, but I didn't find them superior to Invocation of the Elements. YMMV as I am not a superior intellect.... Especially with regards to Tau.



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Also, to the above comments about a 45 point model being expensive. I just have to giggle. Imagine if the Orks had access to a 45 point grot that allowed reroll 1s to hit. It'd be in nearly every list. Painboys are 35pts.... Or something right?

You do you. Go win a GT using a list with 0 markerlights and a bunch of Ethereals and change my mind. For now, I'll stick with my own results and the collective consensus of the entire Tau community, minus you.

 doktor_g wrote:
Well. I played my first game with new Tau. They PUMMLED my opponents. It was 2v1 as they were practicing for a twin linked tourney. Ended up tabling Crons + Ravenguard with the above list. Maybe it was a LTP issue, but my original opinion of Pathfinders and Markerlights in general, has not changed. The ethereal reroll 1s was superior TODAY. Maybe not all the time. Admittedly trying to hit RavenGuard was a little frustrating, but even expending CPs to bring my perrenial 3 markers to 5 proved impossible. I will be reconsidering Markerlights. Still not as good as they used to be. Just my opinion, but I didn't find them superior to Invocation of the Elements. YMMV as I am not a superior intellect.... Especially with regards to Tau.



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Also, to the above comments about a 45 point model being expensive. I just have to giggle. Imagine if the Orks had access to a 45 point grot that allowed reroll 1s to hit. It'd be in nearly every list. Painboys are 35pts.... Or something right?

You are both correct and incorrect that ML are not as good as last edition. On the one hand, ML cant be used to astranomically boost the bs of your key units on a 1 for 1 basis (totally fething broken mechanic from 7th). On the other 1 ml effects your entire army instead of 1 unit, which is a massive bonus.

I love the new markerlights. it gives you freedom of choice. You can spread around with 1 and have your whole army getting reroll 1's. You can push 2 and then unload all your seeker missiles at once. Then if you really want something dead NOW, you go for the big 5 and unleash hell. This also helps your army spread on multiple MSU units and get a lot of CP. Whereas in the old markerlights, you needed to build deathstar units (namely O'vesha stars etc) to utilize all the markerlights once and produce stupid results (shooting with reroll hits, reroll wounds, no armor save and no cover save attacks).

 meleti wrote:
You do you. Go win a GT using a list with 0 markerlights and a bunch of Ethereals and change my mind. For now, I'll stick with my own results and the collective consensus of the entire Tau community, minus you.

Has there been a GT win with markerlights?

It's not the entire community. As we saw with Nids at Adepticon, each tournament has it's own eco system. If you want to win games at your local store, where time limits don't matter and hordes are more viable, markerlights are a lot less useful.

 meleti wrote:
You do you. Go win a GT using a list with 0 markerlights and a bunch of Ethereals and change my mind. For now, I'll stick with my own results and the collective consensus of the entire Tau community, minus you.

I always do. And I suspect there are other Tau players out there that like the predicatbility of Ethereals over the unpredictability of Markerlights.

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 Lance845 wrote:
[
You are both correct and incorrect that ML are not as good as last edition. On the one hand, ML cant be used to astranomically boost the bs of your key units on a 1 for 1 basis (totally fething broken mechanic from 7th). On the other 1 ml effects your entire army instead of 1 unit, which is a massive bonus.

I agree that sticky Markerlights are a nice tradeoff. But needing 5 for a +1BS just seems not worth it from a tactical, and statistical point of view. And are you using seeker missles that much?

 doktor_g wrote:

 meleti wrote:
You do you. Go win a GT using a list with 0 markerlights and a bunch of Ethereals and change my mind. For now, I'll stick with my own results and the collective consensus of the entire Tau community, minus you.

I always do. And I suspect there are other Tau players out there that like the predicatbility of Ethereals over the unpredictability of Markerlights.

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 Lance845 wrote:
[
You are both correct and incorrect that ML are not as good as last edition. On the one hand, ML cant be used to astranomically boost the bs of your key units on a 1 for 1 basis (totally fething broken mechanic from 7th). On the other 1 ml effects your entire army instead of 1 unit, which is a massive bonus.

I agree that sticky Markerlights are a nice tradeoff. But needing 5 for a +1BS just seems not worth it from a tactical, and statistical point of view. And are you using seeker missles that much?

Rerolling 1s on a BS 4 platform equates to about 90% of +1 BS.

It's significantly more than that on your hammerheads and completely broken on 2+ commanders.

You need to consider more what that rerolling 1s is actually doing for you.

Seekers have had quite the buff from index to codex. Still putting together my codex list atm.

Lance, thanks for the math. I haven't looked at seekers yet this edition. Getting my hard copy of the codex today with any luck. I will check them (seekers) out again!

 Lance845 wrote:

Rerolling 1s on a BS 4 platform equates to about 90% of +1 BS.

Is it? I was under the impression it was worth only about 50%.

Let's say 12 attacks BS 4+ rerolling ones:
- 6 hits, + 2 ones
- Reroll the 2 ones gives you 1 hit.
- Total is 7 hits.

But 12 shots at BS 3+:
- Total 8 hits.

To actually math it out.

A BS 4 model hits .5 times with a single shot.
Rerolling 1s it hits .583 times with a single shot.

A BS 3 model hits .667
Rerolling 1s .778

A bs 2 model hits .833
Rerolling 1s .972.

Or to take a full unit of firewarriors at rapid fire range.
11.667 hits increasing their average hits from 10 with a roughly 20% increase. (since that .667 is more likely to be 1 more hit than 1 less hit).

If Firewarriors were to be BS 3. They would average 13.333 hits. 1 additional hit on average with a smaller chance of a second additional hit.

Rerolling 1s is not AS good as +1 BS. But it does MOST of what +1 BS does on a 4+ platform. And Markerlights are giving it to your entire army, not just units that don't move inside a small bubble.

And if you can get 5 ML on the desired target you end up with 15.553 hits.

IMO ethereal are pretty bad. In almost every situation I could take one I'd prefer another fireblade instead. Not a terrible pick to baby sit some broadsides.

 Lance845 wrote:
To actually math it out.

A BS 4 model hits .5 times with a single shot.
Rerolling 1s it hits .583 times with a single shot.

A BS 3 model hits .667
Rerolling 1s .778

A bs 2 model hits .833
Rerolling 1s .972.

Or to take a full unit of firewarriors at rapid fire range.
11.667 hits increasing their average hits from 10 with a roughly 20% increase. (since that .667 is more likely to be 1 more hit than 1 less hit).

If Firewarriors were to be BS 3. They would average 13.333 hits. 1 additional hit on average with a smaller chance of a second additional hit.

Rerolling 1s is not AS good as +1 BS. But it does MOST of what +1 BS does on a 4+ platform. And Markerlights are giving it to your entire army, not just units that don't move inside a small bubble.

So the total difference is actually: 13.333-11.667= 1.667 more hits. Reroll ones is a 16.6% increase in hits while +1 BS is a 33.3% increase. Reroll ones is worth exactly half of + 1 BS (for BS 4+).

If you want to look at total absolute output, then 11.667/13.333= 87.5%. So a unit with BS 4+ rerolling ones gets 87.5% of the hits landed with BS 3+, while straight BS 4+ only lands 10/13.333= 75%.

Is there any reason you can't have both an Ethereal and marker support? Both units are really cheap and have their strong points. It seems like most Tau armies are going to end up with a fair chunk of marker lights scattered around due to the Commander restriction, filling slots, filling Pathfinder units, etc., so if you're actually worried about your leadership for some reason, maybe the Ethereal is a wise buy?

That said, I hardly ever stay still with my army unless I'm camping an objective, so rerolling 1s from an Ethereal is pretty unlikely. Also, i have either lots of tiny units or individual big suits, so leadership bonuses are generally unimportant. I'm not saying Ethereals are bad, but having more Fireblade coverage is probably preferable.

Dandelion wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
To actually math it out.

A BS 4 model hits .5 times with a single shot.
Rerolling 1s it hits .583 times with a single shot.

A BS 3 model hits .667
Rerolling 1s .778

A bs 2 model hits .833
Rerolling 1s .972.

Or to take a full unit of firewarriors at rapid fire range.
11.667 hits increasing their average hits from 10 with a roughly 20% increase. (since that .667 is more likely to be 1 more hit than 1 less hit).

If Firewarriors were to be BS 3. They would average 13.333 hits. 1 additional hit on average with a smaller chance of a second additional hit.

Rerolling 1s is not AS good as +1 BS. But it does MOST of what +1 BS does on a 4+ platform. And Markerlights are giving it to your entire army, not just units that don't move inside a small bubble.

So the total difference is actually: 13.333-11.667= 1.667 more hits. Reroll ones is a 16.6% increase in hits while +1 BS is a 33.3% increase. Reroll ones is worth exactly half of + 1 BS (for BS 4+).

If you want to look at total absolute output, then 11.667/13.333= 87.5%. So a unit with BS 4+ rerolling ones gets 87.5% of the hits landed with BS 3+, while straight BS 4+ only lands 10/13.333= 75%.

You need to take into account the limitations of the 6 sided die at the end of all that. The difference between 13.333 and 11.667 is 1.667. BUT taken on their own a 11.667 is going to be 12 hits 4 out of 6 shooting phases of the game and a 13.333 is going to be 13 hits 4 out of 6.

In practical terms it's not an average extra 1.5 hits per shooting. It's a reliable 1 more hit over the reliable 12 which is over the standard 10 most of the time.

And thats assuming the game is actually 6 turns to let those things actually average out.

Again, a reoll 1s on a BS4 platform does most of what a +1bs does anyway. And the only way to get both +1 BS and reroll 1s is markerlights.

MilkmanAl wrote:
Is there any reason you can't have both an Ethereal and marker support? Both units are really cheap and have their strong points. It seems like most Tau armies are going to end up with a fair chunk of marker lights scattered around due to the Commander restriction, filling slots, filling Pathfinder units, etc., so if you're actually worried about your leadership for some reason, maybe the Ethereal is a wise buy?

That said, I hardly ever stay still with my army unless I'm camping an objective, so rerolling 1s from an Ethereal is pretty unlikely. Also, i have either lots of tiny units or individual big suits, so leadership bonuses are generally unimportant. I'm not saying Ethereals are bad, but having more Fireblade coverage is probably preferable.

To be honest it's fair to consider it an either/or. The first thing that markerlights do is give you reroll 1s, and ethereals also do that.

When I started playing Tau (in 3rd edition) I never used to take markerlights. My philosophy was to always just take more units with guns. Firing more shots was better than firing more accurate shots.

And to be honest I think that approach still has some merit. You actually could replace markerlight support with ethereals in some situations. You could certainly argue that a lot of the time markerlight hits makes very little difference. The big news is rerolling 1s, which an ethereal gives you, and +1 BS, which requires a serious investment, one way or the other. So an ethereal does actually give you the first of those benefits, automatically and regardless of what you shoot at, along with a useful LD buff.

Some units really do want markerlight hits - notably those with seeker and destroyer missiles. But even then you only need 2 hits. That's pretty achievable with fireblades, firesight marksmen etc. You can even turn a single hit from your fireblade into D3+1 with a 1CP stratagem.

Another option I've been considering is to have Shadowsun (or possibly another commander) to call Kauyon. Stand her by a unit of 3 broadsides, plus maybe a riptide or two, and have her use the CNC node stratagem on the broadsides to make them reroll to wound. She can call Kauyon twice, after which to be honest you'd expect to see really big holes where the enemy army used to be - or you'd have lost. And if the broadsides have a few marker drones with them then that ought to give you enough markerlight hits to fire off their seeker missiles too.

Aura buffs, like those given by Kauyon and ethereals, give you the freedom to target multiple enemy units if you want. Markerlights, and stratagems like focused fire, let you do really heavy damage to a single target instead.

TLDR: if you are using hammerheads for your heavy support then markerlights are good. They let you move and shoot without penalty, and fire off your seeker missiles. Broadsides would rather havean ethereal or Kauyon, but that's got a price attached to it too.

Also a consideration is that single markerlight-equipped models are some of the cheapest units to fill out battalions. So while you may or may not take Pathfinders (I like 'em a lot) you may still have some weight of markerlights just through CP farming.

 Lance845 wrote:

You need to take into account the limitations of the 6 sided die at the end of all that. The difference between 13.333 and 11.667 is 1.667. BUT taken on their own a 11.667 is going to be 12 hits 4 out of 6 shooting phases of the game and a 13.333 is going to be 13 hits 4 out of 6.

In practical terms it's not an average extra 1.5 hits per shooting. It's a reliable 1 more hit over the reliable 12 which is over the standard 10 most of the time.

And thats assuming the game is actually 6 turns to let those things actually average out.

Again, a reoll 1s on a BS4 platform does most of what a +1bs does anyway. And the only way to get both +1 BS and reroll 1s is markerlights.

Well, we are talking averages here. Which means that if I rolled sufficiently enough times, I would come back to those average values. Of course the whole point of the dice is to add that random factor so that we're not just using averages all the time.

But if we applied the 13.333 hits per turn for three turns we should get: 13 hits, 13 hits, and 14 hits. For 11.667 hits per turn, over 3 turns we get: 11 hits, 12 hits, and 12 hits.
Which is: 40 hits versus 35 hits total. Meanwhile with 10 hits per turn, we get 30 hits.
Rounding up or down on averages will skew the overall result. (13x3=39, 12x3=36)

Though, I think I was getting caught up on you're phrasing. (I thought you were claiming that reroll ones increases hits by almost as much as +1BS not that it has 90% of the output)
A BS 4+ rerolling ones has 87.5% of the output of BS 3+. (the 90% you mentioned earlier) However, reroll ones only increases hits by half as much as +1 BS. So we were both right, but I was just looking at it differently.

The other thing rerolling 1s does of course is make it a lot safer to overcharge ion weapons. An ethereal is a far more reliable way to make that safer, so long as he can be in the right place to do it. As a character he's a hell of a lot harder to get rid of than pathfinders or gun drones, and he doesn't have to actually hit anything.

A seriously infantry-heavy brigade could do a lot worse than to take Aun Va. Surround him with fire warriors and they'll get rerolls to morale tests, the best warlord trait and your choice of two invocations. And he's very difficult to get rid of, thanks to his two bodyguards and potentially some drones nearby. Just a shame it's such an awful model!

I like the pope model


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Only seated model?

Isnt Aun'va tau sept only too?

For infantry heavy there is a strong argument that Bork'an is better than Tau.

 Lance845 wrote:
Isnt Aun'va tau sept only too?

For infantry heavy there is a strong argument that Bork'an is better than Tau.

True, though charging at a Tau sept gunline is pretty suicidal. I think either could work well.

Darkstrider also makes a huge difference for Tau sept, I think. If you want to field lots of big fire warrior units then being able to reroll morale and shoot after falling back is a really big deal. You're even a little more likely to survive if they do reach you, thanks to more accurate overwatching grenades.