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I have a friend who has a question about his codex rules for a relic. I don't know Necrons at all because I play Orks. He wants to know if the relic improves the bearer's normal save and invuln save, or just the normal save. Here's the rule:

The bearer's Save characteristic is improved by 1 (i.e. a Save characteristic of 4+ becomes 3+, a Save characteristic of 3+ becomes 2+ etc.) In addition, enemy units subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic whilst they are within 6" of the bearer of the Nightmare Shroud.

Just the armor. That's the Save Characteristic.

If it said "Add +1 to all save rolls" then it would apply to Invulns too, but it does not.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Just the armor. That's the Save Characteristic.

If it said "Add +1 to all save rolls" then it would apply to Invulns too, but it does not.

I looked at this from a rulebook on the GW website. Does this apply to the nightmare shroud?

Q: If an ability allows me to add 1 to saving throws, does it
apply to both normal saving throws and invulnerable throws?
A: Yes, unless otherwise stated.
Remember that invulnerable saves are unaffected by the
+1 bonus models receive to their saving throws for the
benefits of cover.

No. Save Characteristic is armor only.

Just to clarify things the save characteristic is the SV part of the data sheet. The save roll is adding to the dice. In the Necrons' case it affects the former and not the latter.

Can anyone else agree to what Leo and JNA said? My friend said two people aren't enough to say it is what it is, and he is comparing the relic to kastellan robots +1 save.

Cj4594 wrote:
Can anyone else agree to what Leo and JNA said? My friend said two people aren't enough to say it is what it is, and he is comparing the relic to kastellan robots +1 save.

Aegis Protocol SPECIFICALLY SAYS add 1 to Armor and Invulnerable saves.

This modifies the save characteristic, which is the X+ number on their statline.

It has nothing to do with Invuln saves.

Cj4594 wrote:
Can anyone else agree to what Leo and JNA said? My friend said two people aren't enough to say it is what it is, and he is comparing the relic to kastellan robots +1 save.

Sure I just took a look at the Necron Codex and agree... it's an improvement to the Save Characteristic, which is the "Sv" on the units data card. (From 3+ to 2+)

And in Codex: Ad-Mech Kastelan Robots clearly say it's add 1 to any armor or invulnerable save you make.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Cj4594 wrote:
Can anyone else agree to what Leo and JNA said? My friend said two people aren't enough to say it is what it is, and he is comparing the relic to kastellan robots +1 save.

Aegis Protocol SPECIFICALLY SAYS add 1 to Armor and Invulnerable saves.

This modifies the save characteristic, which is the X+ number on their statline.

It has nothing to do with Invuln saves.

ty ty, this has been an ongoing debate in our warhammer facebook group.

Page 174 BRB defines what is a Characteristic. The Save there is what is modified.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Page 174 BRB defines what is a Characteristic. The Save there is what is modified.

My friend looked up page 174 and responded with this, "Y\The FAQs I sent are for the Big Rule Book. And page 174 of the BRB says nothing about characteristics, it only mentions the armor save as a profile.
However it also says the entire Data Sheet has characteristics which would have the invul save on it as well. So I'm turn it would have the Armor Save profile and the Invuln Save profile as the save"

I don't really know what to say about it. I'm of the camp that if it wanted to improve the invuln save, it would just say it. That particular relic is already giving -1 to leadership in addition to the save.

Cj4594 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Page 174 BRB defines what is a Characteristic. The Save there is what is modified.

My friend looked up page 174 and responded with this, "Y\The FAQs I sent are for the Big Rule Book. And page 174 of the BRB says nothing about characteristics, it only mentions the armor save as a profile.
However it also says the entire Data Sheet has characteristics which would have the invul save on it as well. So I'm turn it would have the Armor Save profile and the Invuln Save profile as the save"

I don't really know what to say about it. I'm of the camp that if it wanted to improve the invuln save, it would just say it. That particular relic is already giving -1 to leadership in addition to the save.

To put it bluntly, your friend either doesn't understand the rules or actively trying to cheat you. The characteristics can never have an invulnerable save on it, that's why all invuls are special rules.

Page 174 BRB wrote:4. Profiles
These contain the following characteristics that tell you how mighty the models in the unit are:

Page 174 BRB wrote:Save (Sv): This indicates the protection a model’s armour gives.

I'm sorry, but if your friend is refusing to listen to the rules, just refuse to play him. If something modifies the Save characteristic, it modifies only the one that is on it's profile, called an "Armour" save in previous editions, it's just called "Save" now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Cj4594 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Page 174 BRB defines what is a Characteristic. The Save there is what is modified.

My friend looked up page 174 and responded with this, "Y\The FAQs I sent are for the Big Rule Book. And page 174 of the BRB says nothing about characteristics, it only mentions the armor save as a profile.
However it also says the entire Data Sheet has characteristics which would have the invul save on it as well. So I'm turn it would have the Armor Save profile and the Invuln Save profile as the save"

I don't really know what to say about it. I'm of the camp that if it wanted to improve the invuln save, it would just say it. That particular relic is already giving -1 to leadership in addition to the save.

To put it bluntly, your friend either doesn't understand the rules or actively trying to cheat you. The characteristics can never have an invulnerable save on it, that's why all invuls are special rules.

Page 174 BRB wrote:4. Profiles
These contain the following characteristics that tell you how mighty the models in the unit are:

Page 174 BRB wrote:Save (Sv): This indicates the protection a model’s armour gives.

I'm sorry, but if your friend is refusing to listen to the rules, just refuse to play him. If something modifies the Save characteristic, it modifies only the one that is on it's profile, called an "Armour" save in previous editions, it's just called "Save" now.

This is how I explained it. I don't know if I was right, but I ended up convincing him, I think: " I do not think that the invunerable save is apart of the characteristics. It is an ability. The ability part of this relic is the -1 to leadership it gives off, and it just happens to modify the characteristic. The invuln save for Imotekh is an ability called phase shifter. The relic can modify an ability and a characteristic. Aegis protocols giving +1 to save and +1 to their invuln modifies the save characteristic, but it also modifies an ability: Repulsor Grid, which is their 5+ invulnerable save ability. The shroud modifies the character save, which is the armor save up top, and it also gives an ability, which is -1 to leadership. To modify the ability, it would specifically have to say "add 1 to any invulnerable save you make with this unit." I think the issue we have is that we see the invulnerable save as a stat and not an ability that the model actively uses. So, when Imotekh sees a -4 missle coming to his phase, he uses his ability "phase shift" to reduce the chances that it will hit him by 2. It is something that has to be actively used. I.E. characteristics are passive traits that models have, and abilities have to be used. If we wanted to be super technical, we should be declaring that "Imotekh is going to use his ability, phase shift, to gain a +4 invulnerable save".