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So this might sound like I am getting edition rules mixed up, but I just want to be clear that I have this correct.

In prior editions, Pile in and Consolidation were not optional. The only way to no longer be in combat was to no longer have models in base contact AFTER all units in the combat have attempted to move closer.

In 8E, Pile in and Consolidate are optional, and you are only "locked" in combat if you are within 1" of an enemy at the start of your turn.
So it seems possible to take casualties in a way that removes your models from that 1" zone, decide not to pile in and therefore in the next turn you do not have to fall back, allowing you to act normally.

Is this the case? Am I missing anything?
And if true, how can you possibly tarpit in 8E? Use melee units that don't cause damage?

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You are correct. As for how to tarpit you can surround what you are tarpitting entirely. Also one model units (like vehicles) cannot use this trick so you've got that.

Pile is not optional. You have to move it closer to the enemy even if that move is .0000001".

Consolidate is optional.

In 8th ed, you resolve the attacks AFTER charge and pile in has been made.

Fall back can be prevented if you can surround at least 1 of their models, trapping it so that it cannot move to at least 1" away from your models without necessarilly moving through your model - which is illegal unless it has fly.

 Galef wrote:

And if true, how can you possibly tarpit in 8E? Use melee units that don't cause damage?

You tarpit, surround your enemy entirely, with pile in, fight, and consolidate, if you havent completely surrounded him you can spend 3CP to fight again, which means another pile in, another fight, and another consolidation move at the end. You can also pile in and consolidate on another enemy unit (if the first unit has been destroyed, or your models are closer to it), but you must have declared a charge against them.

Consolidation is after attacking. So if you want to remove your casualties in such a way that your unit isn't within 1" of the enemy anymore, you have to loose enough models to create a 4" gap. That's usually most of your unit, unless your models are in a line, and were charged by the side, by a unit that couldn't wrap around them.
I've seen many units disengage freely in 8th, but it was always because of a mistake from the charger (not wrapping around the unit, not realizing that he had to consolidate within 1", etc.)

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
Also one model units (like vehicles) cannot use this trick so you've got that.

True that 1 model units cannot take casualties to "unlock" from combat without falling back.
However that opposite is true for 1 model units that charge a unit they don't want shooting next turn.

For example, a flying Daemon Prince charges a unit of Devastators. Kills 3 of them. The remaining models do not have to move at all, thus could very well be outside 1" and thus shoot next turn. And probably shoot the DP now as it's the closest target.

I guess I just miss that tactic. I recall the days in which I could charge the flank of a unit an because they had to Pile-in, I could pull them off an objective.
With voluntary falling back being a thing, I really think Pile-in should be mandatory
It would be like getting charged, rushing in to try and fend the enemy off, then realizing it was futile and backing away.

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 Galef wrote:

 Zarroc1733 wrote:
Also one model units (like vehicles) cannot use this trick so you've got that.

True that 1 model units cannot take casualties to "unlock" from combat without falling back.
However that opposite is true for 1 model units that charge a unit they don't want shooting next turn.

For example, a flying Daemon Prince charges a unit of Devastators. Kills 3 of them. The remaining models do not have to move at all, thus could very well be outside 1" and thus shoot next turn. And probably shoot the DP now as it's the closest target.

I guess I just miss that tactic. I recall the days in which I could charge the flank of a unit an because they had to Pile-in, I could pull them off an objective.
With voluntary falling back being a thing, I really think Pile-in should be mandatory
It would be like getting charged, rushing in to try and fend the enemy off, then realizing it was futile and backing away.

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The consolidation step happens after models are removed though, so, the only way the Devs would be able to shoot, is if the DP's 3" consolidation still put him outside the 1" required combat zone.

If there gap was still there, then yes they could do whatever they wanted next turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:
Pile is not optional. You have to move it closer to the enemy even if that move is .0000001".

Consolidate is optional.

In 8th ed, you resolve the attacks AFTER charge and pile in has been made.

Fall back can be prevented if you can surround at least 1 of their models, trapping it so that it cannot move to at least 1" away from your models without necessarilly moving through your model - which is illegal unless it has fly.

Core Rules - Fight Phase.

2. Pile In
You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this
move can be in any direction so long as the model ends
the move closer to the nearest enemy model

Pile in is completely optional, just as consolidation is.

Yeah you get your consolidate so you can then just consolidate back into the unit so that they're still stuck. In certain scenarios you may still be unable to catch them but usually 3 inch consolidate will be enough.

In short, outside of surrounding the unit ENTIRELY, you can't tar-pit because of free fall back. You can try and pile in/consolidate into other squads though to stop them shooting, you need to be careful with model placement though since Pile In/Consolidate must be towards the closest enemy model, not any model.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, outside of surrounding the unit ENTIRELY, you can't tar-pit because of free fall back. You can try and pile in/consolidate into other squads though to stop them shooting, you need to be careful with model placement though since Pile In/Consolidate must be towards the closest enemy model, not any model.

This is something that bugs me.

The rule states each model can move up to 3 inches as long as it's closer to the nearest enemy model. The model does not need to be in the unit you are fighting.

I'm often in a situation with large blobs of Cultists where the closest enemy model is in another unit. There's often a reason I don't want to fight that other unit, either because it's a cc beast or because I want to shoot at it next turn.

When you think about it, strategic placement of multiple units is a great board control tactic. You can shut down an opponent's ability to fight at full unit strength by positioning your units so that their horde can't pile in on it's target. You could create a disruptive line like this over a pretty wide area with several MSU squads.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In short, outside of surrounding the unit ENTIRELY, you can't tar-pit because of free fall back. You can try and pile in/consolidate into other squads though to stop them shooting, you need to be careful with model placement though since Pile In/Consolidate must be towards the closest enemy model, not any model.

This is something that bugs me.

The rule states each model can move up to 3 inches as long as it's closer to the nearest enemy model. The model does not need to be in the unit you are fighting.

I'm often in a situation with large blobs of Cultists where the closest enemy model is in another unit. There's often a reason I don't want to fight that other unit, either because it's a cc beast or because I want to shoot at it next turn.

When you think about it, strategic placement of multiple units is a great board control tactic. You can shut down an opponent's ability to fight at full unit strength by positioning your units so that their horde can't pile in on it's target. You could create a disruptive line like this over a pretty wide area with several MSU squads.

You don't have to pile in if you don't want to.

As for being unable to pile in towards an "intended" target, well, thems the breaks. Position your models more carefully next time It's a disadvantage inherent to hoards.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
You don't have to pile in if you don't want to.

As for being unable to pile in towards an "intended" target, well, thems the breaks. Position your models more carefully next time It's a disadvantage inherent to hoards.

Yeah, the rules are the rules. It affects me with Cultists some of the times, and I've used it against Orks.

I don’t have the BRB with me, but I thought it said that the unit consolidates toward the closest enemy unit, not model? Therefore, if the unit is in base to base with a given other unit, it can only consolidate toward it?

sieGermans wrote:
I don’t have the BRB with me, but I thought it said that the unit consolidates toward the closest enemy unit, not model? Therefore, if the unit is in base to base with a given other unit, it can only consolidate toward it?

Both pile in and consolidate use the literal, word for word, letter for letter, exact same rule.

You may move each model in the unit up to 3" – this move can be in any direction so long as the model ends the move closer to the nearest enemy model.

Unfortunately this is how it works. It is probably the most stupid interaction in the game.

In 1 game I had a broodlord locked in combat with shining spears. I brought in a 3 man warrior to help finish them off. The warriors had to fight first because they charged so they ended up killing 2 spears. My opponent removed the spears near my broodlord and so he was no longer in combat - I could not fight with him even though he has been in combat for longer than the warriors. I about wanted to smash my broodlord for being so stupid as to not fight the unit that just wiped out most of his brood. Very Very stupid interaction there. The best way to fix this is allow opponents to select which models they are attacking in close combat.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Unfortunately this is how it works. It is probably the most stupid interaction in the game.

In 1 game I had a broodlord locked in combat with shining spears. I brought in a 3 man warrior to help finish them off. The warriors had to fight first because they charged so they ended up killing 2 spears. My opponent removed the spears near my broodlord and so he was no longer in combat - I could not fight with him even though he has been in combat for longer than the warriors. I about wanted to smash my broodlord for being so stupid as to not fight the unit that just wiped out most of his brood. Very Very stupid interaction there. The best way to fix this is allow opponents to select which models they are attacking in close combat.

Or to not charge in with the warriors in the first place so that the Broodlord can finish his job.

Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I am saying that having to limit yourself so you don't kill the enemy too much has always been part of the game. It's not something new to 8th.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

There were editions where you could not consolidate into a new unit when the old one died.
Therefor if you charged something and killed everyone you were out in the open and would get shot.
So assault armies would aim to just kill enough models to wipe their target in 2 rounds of combat (yours as you charge and then your opponents) so they would be free to charge something else when your turn came round again.

Managing what you kill in combat has been a thing long before 8th.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I am saying that having to limit yourself so you don't kill the enemy too much has always been part of the game. It's not something new to 8th.

That has nothing to do with the situation I was describing though. Casualties in CC have always been distributed based on where the attacks were coming from - now that the opponent can assign the wounds anywhere. Multiple units can he denied the ability to attack with this nonsense. This should be happening simultaneously - any unit in combat at the start of the fight phase should be allowed to pile in regardless of if there are no units within 1".

Tarpitting doesn’t require surrounding the entire unit, btw. Just surround one model enough so that it cannot move through your models... hey presto, that unit cannot legally fall back so cannot move!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I am saying that having to limit yourself so you don't kill the enemy too much has always been part of the game. It's not something new to 8th.

That has nothing to do with the situation I was describing though. Casualties in CC have always been distributed based on where the attacks were coming from - now that the opponent can assign the wounds anywhere. Multiple units can he denied the ability to attack with this nonsense. This should be happening simultaneously - any unit in combat at the start of the fight phase should be allowed to pile in regardless of if there are no units within 1".

That’s a privilege only granted to Charging units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Yeah this was my first exposure to the interaction. It's a bad one though. Why should I be putting myself at a disadvantage for sending in support? It's entirely backwards.

Back in my day, we used to take tiny squads of Genestealers, because we SO VERY DESPERATELY wanted the charged unit to survive one turn, so we could mop them up then move and charge again. It's always been like that.

I don't understand what you are saying.

I am saying that having to limit yourself so you don't kill the enemy too much has always been part of the game. It's not something new to 8th.

That has nothing to do with the situation I was describing though. Casualties in CC have always been distributed based on where the attacks were coming from - now that the opponent can assign the wounds anywhere. Multiple units can he denied the ability to attack with this nonsense. This should be happening simultaneously - any unit in combat at the start of the fight phase should be allowed to pile in regardless of if there are no units within 1".

No, there have been editions where any model could be removed as a casualty.
Additionally In 5th edition casualties had to come from engaged models (models in b2b or within 1" of a model in b2b), there was no extra pile in step before attacking so if in an earlier initiative step all engaged models were killed the remaining models were out of range and could not attack back.

None of your situations and complains are new to 8th edition.
If anything models have more freedom to move and attack then ever before. a 3" pile in before attacking. another 3" move after. No rule to specifies you must try to get as close as possible which can lead to some really creative movement shenanigans.
(ofcourse on the otherhand the ability to freely leave combat, if it balances out is a different discussion imo).

They might not be new but it's still illogical and 8th ed took step backward.

No it's new man. In the situation I am talking about. Warriors are forced to fight first because they charged (totally new). Plus - in every other addition models had to be removed from base to base. The 2 spears that were removed were not in base to base.

This interaction is terribly bad. I can literally prevent a whole unit from attacking in CC if another unit causes a lot of casualties - by removing casualties from units that haven't frough yet. It was possible to do this in other edditions yes - but having no control over who fights first only adds to the problem.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No it's new man. In the situation I am talking about. Warriors are forced to fight first because they charged (totally new). Plus - in every other addition models had to be removed from base to base. The 2 spears that were removed were not in base to base.

This interaction is terribly bad. I can literally prevent a whole unit from attacking in CC if another unit causes a lot of casualties - by removing casualties from units that haven't frough yet. It was possible to do this in other edditions yes - but having no control over who fights first only adds to the problem.

You have the most control now than any previous edition due to the Alternating combat.

Seems like we’ve all answered the Rules question posed now, however.

 Xenomancers wrote:
. Plus - in every other addition models had to be removed from base to base. The 2 spears that were removed were not in base to base.

You have either a poor memory or a short one
That wasn't true in 4th, or 5th. In 7th it had to be from those models fighting at the same unit step, so you could have the same issue with two BL in the same combat.
Oh and didn't chargers go first in 2nd?