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Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Hi folks,

I had a weird situation occur the other day. My Lord of Change managed to cast Infernal Gateway on a Coldstar commander who was within 3" of a unit of 2 Shield drones.

I dealt 6 Mortal wounds to the Commander and 3 Mortal wounds to the Shield drones.

1) I believe the damage from Infernal Gateway should have been applied to all units simultaneously, and if any drones survived, Savior Protocols could then be used.
2) My opponent believed that he could transfer wounds right away with Savior Protocols, thus negating the 3 MW from Infernal Gateway dealt to the drones AND saving his commander.

We went with number 2 because I didn't want to be an ass, but it felt wrong to me.

How does it really work ?

PS : fyi, here's the wording of Infernal Gateway : "If manifested, identify the nearest ennemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that model's unit, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model, suffers D3 (D6 on 12+) mortal wounds."

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Nym wrote:
Hi folks,

I had a weird situation occur the other day. My Lord of Change managed to cast Infernal Gateway on a Coldstar commander who was within 3" of a unit of 2 Shield drones.

I dealt 6 Mortal wounds to the Commander and 3 Mortal wounds to the Shield drones.

1) I believe the damage from Infernal Gateway should have been applied to all units simultaneously, and if any drones survived, Savior Protocols could then be used.
2) My opponent believed that he could transfer wounds right away with Savior Protocols, thus negating the 3 MW from Infernal Gateway dealt to the drones AND saving his commander.

We went with number 2 because I didn't want to be an ass, but it felt wrong to me.

How does it really work ?

PS : fyi, here's the wording of Infernal Gateway : "If manifested, identify the nearest ennemy model that is within 12" of the psyker and visible to it; that model's unit, and every other unit (friend and foe) within 3" of that model, suffers D3 (D6 on 12+) mortal wounds."
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 22:23:21


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Would each wound be a seperate or single "damage" of 6 MW?
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 22:34:35


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Ice_can wrote:
Would each wound be a seperate or single "damage" of 6 MW?
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.
Yes, Mortal wounds are always single wounds.

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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.

Could you point me to a page please ? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

Ice_can wrote:
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.

Infernal Gateway, I rolled a 12 (after a re-roll) which means the power deals D6 damage instead of D3. That's my favorite power and on a Lord of Change, it's not too hard to cast. It's especially fun on people who like to castle (ie : everyone in 8th edition).

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Nym wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.

Could you point me to a page please ? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

Ice_can wrote:
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.

Infernal Gateway, I rolled a 12 (after a re-roll) which means the power deals D6 damage instead of D3. That's my favorite power and on a Lord of Change, it's not too hard to cast. It's especially fun on people who like to castle (ie : everyone in 8th edition).
Mortal wounds by definition are single damage.

Sequencing rules are in one of the sidebars.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/15 22:59:02


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Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Nym wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.

Could you point me to a page please ? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

Ice_can wrote:
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.

Infernal Gateway, I rolled a 12 (after a re-roll) which means the power deals D6 damage instead of D3. That's my favorite power and on a Lord of Change, it's not too hard to cast. It's especially fun on people who like to castle (ie : everyone in 8th edition).

Sidebar of page 178 (Psychic Phase).
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nym wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.

Could you point me to a page please ? I tried looking for it but couldn't find it.

Ice_can wrote:
Also how did you deal 6 MW to his commander out of interest.

Infernal Gateway, I rolled a 12 (after a re-roll) which means the power deals D6 damage instead of D3. That's my favorite power and on a Lord of Change, it's not too hard to cast. It's especially fun on people who like to castle (ie : everyone in 8th edition).


So you survived your perils then, always amazes me howmany times people forget 12 is a perils.
Also just FYI shield drones do have a 5+ don't loose a wound rule
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





Ice_can wrote:
So you survived your perils then, always amazes me howmany times people forget 12 is a perils. Also just FYI shield drones do have a 5+ don't loose a wound rule

Don't worry, we were aware of the Shield drones FNP. One was saved, the other two weren't. The commander ended up losing 3 wounds.

Btw, only double 1s and double 6s are Perils, not 12+ (unless you're playing Orks). I rolled 11 +1 (LoC ability), which isn't a Peril.

Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.


Sequencing has nothing to do with this.

"While playing Warhammer
40,000, you’ll occasionally
find that two or more rules
are to be resolved at the
same time."

Infernal gateway is one rule, not two or more.

Mortal Wounds

"Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound – just allocate it as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above."

MW are allocated as usual, by the player controlling the targeted unit. The shield drones would intercept mortal wounds which hit the commander. When the shield drones are destroyed MW for them are lost.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Fair point. But the issue here there are two units being targeted. Who gets to decide which unit is resolved first? The defender gets to decide the order the wounds are allocated, but the spell affects both units simultaneously. I guess this means the game breaks down since no rule to decide what happens when two things from the same rule happen simultaneously?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 06:43:18


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Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

If we get super technical and take a closer look at the MW sidebar in the core rules, we find this : "Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury." Infernal gateway is not an attack, its a psychic power. There are no rules how to handle MW from a spell which affects two, or more, units simultaneously. The game breaks down.

Discuss with your opponent pregame how to handle this. HIWPI, like i explained before.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Just talk it out. The most logical application is resolve on target of your power first, then the splash damage on other affected units, in whatever order feels appropriate. Trying to target a character with a power but resolve the splash damage first seems to be reaching for an advantage a leeeetle bit unfairly, to me. My group would always do the centre of the attack first then work outward.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 p5freak wrote:
If we get super technical and take a closer look at the MW sidebar in the core rules, we find this : "Some attacks inflict mortal wounds – these are so powerful that no armour or force field can withstand their fury." Infernal gateway is not an attack, its a psychic power. There are no rules how to handle MW from a spell which affects two, or more, units simultaneously. The game breaks down.

Discuss with your opponent pregame how to handle this. HIWPI, like i explained before.


Quick, start a signature compiling all these tiny (easily amicably resolvable) rules flaws!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 07:19:35


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Quick, start a signature compiling all these tiny (easily amicably resolvable) rules flaws!


I will generously grant BCB the right to add my found rule flaw to his signature, he already has a respectable collection
   
Made in fr
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver





 JohnnyHell wrote:
My group would always do the centre of the attack first then work outward.

No offense, but this is a house rule, and I'd like a RAW answer.

To put it differently : instead of Infernal Gateway, what if the MW came from a vehicle's explosion ? The commander and the drones would be hit simultaneously, with no "centre" or "initial target".

I think the sequencing sidebar is the way to go, otherwise the game does indeed break.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 09:07:54


Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
   
Made in de
Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

There is no RAW answer for this situation. Sequencing does not come into play. The most important rule applies.

The Most
Important Rule

In a game as detailed
and wide-ranging as
Warhammer 40,000, there
may be times when you
are not sure exactly how to
resolve a situation that has
come up during play. When
this happens, have a quick
chat with your opponent
and apply the solution that
makes the most sense to
both of you (or seems the
most fun!). If no single
solution presents itself, you
and your opponent should
roll off, and whoever rolls
highest gets to choose what
happens. Then you can get
on with the fighting!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 09:24:45


 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Unfortunately that rule can just as easily be abused to say "My models have 20 wounds, disagree? Roll off. I lost? My models have 21 rules." and so on. Glad to see GW's stellar rules writing is still the gift that gives on giving.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
+++++List of "broken" RaW in Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Chalice-Wielding Sanguinary High Priest






Germany

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Unfortunately that rule can just as easily be abused to say "My models have 20 wounds, disagree? Roll off. I lost? My models have 21 rules." and so on. Glad to see GW's stellar rules writing is still the gift that gives on giving.


No, it cant. Your models have a datasheet where its wounds are listed.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Unfortunately that rule can just as easily be abused to say "My models have 20 wounds, disagree? Roll off. I lost? My models have 21 rules." and so on. Glad to see GW's stellar rules writing is still the gift that gives on giving.


No, it cant. Your models have a datasheet where its wounds are listed.
I can claim I am unsure of the number on the datasheet.

Add me on Discord: BaconCatBug#0294
+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Unfortunately that rule can just as easily be abused to say "My models have 20 wounds, disagree? Roll off. I lost? My models have 21 rules." and so on. Glad to see GW's stellar rules writing is still the gift that gives on giving.


No, it cant. Your models have a datasheet where its wounds are listed.
I can claim I am unsure of the number on the datasheet.


No, no you can't. That's not following the rules, as The Most Important Rule is only to be used "when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play." C'mon, RAW Guy, at least back up your wriggling with *some* rules? Cheating by claiming your models have more Wounds is not anything TMIR applies to. To quote you from another thread, "Do you even read the rules before posting?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Nym wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
My group would always do the centre of the attack first then work outward.

No offense, but this is a house rule, and I'd like a RAW answer.

To put it differently : instead of Infernal Gateway, what if the MW came from a vehicle's explosion ? The commander and the drones would be hit simultaneously, with no "centre" or "initial target".

I think the sequencing sidebar is the way to go, otherwise the game does indeed break.


Did I say it was a RAW answer? I can't find any RAW answer, as it appears there isn't one, so I told you HIWPI.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/16 10:18:34


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Nym wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
My group would always do the centre of the attack first then work outward.

No offense, but this is a house rule, and I'd like a RAW answer.

To put it differently : instead of Infernal Gateway, what if the MW came from a vehicle's explosion ? The commander and the drones would be hit simultaneously, with no "centre" or "initial target".

I think the sequencing sidebar is the way to go, otherwise the game does indeed break.


This seems to clearly be a case of the RAW being undefined. That is, strictly speaking the rules are silent on this particular timing. Since the rules are silent the only way to go is by an agreement. In other words any particular claim here is as rules-valid as any other. If you and your opponent can't agree, it will go to a roll-off. There is no authoritative source to go by in the this case.

Personal Opinion: This doesn't really mean the game breaks, in the sense of being clearly contradictory or providing no guidance it simply means this one edge case isn't strictly defined. All other precedent in the rules would would indicate the most coherent way to handle is the player generating the wounds deciding the order the go out in, 1 by 1. This is in keeping with how the general attack rules work, and the timing interactions for multiple rules. If this came up it is what I would present to my opponent as a possible interpretation to agree upon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/16 16:48:52


 
   
Made in ca
Deadly Dire Avenger




In the end in this case it doesn't matter though. Savior protocol doesn't trigger for mortal wounds, just regular wounds...

 
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






grazingshot wrote:
In the end in this case it doesn't matter though. Savior protocol doesn't trigger for mortal wounds, just regular wounds...
Savior Protocols triggers on ALL wounds. Mortal wounds are special only in that they automatically wound and don't allow any saves whatsoever. They trigger things that happen when a model is wounded (before damage is inflicted).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 18:13:52


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 p5freak wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Sequencing rule means whoever's turn it is chooses the order the mortal wounds get applied since they happen simultaneously.


Sequencing has nothing to do with this.

"While playing Warhammer
40,000, you’ll occasionally
find that two or more rules
are to be resolved at the
same time."

Infernal gateway is one rule, not two or more.

Mortal Wounds

"Do not make a wound roll or saving
throw (including invulnerable saves) against a
mortal wound – just allocate it as you would
any other wound and inflict damage to a
model in the target unit as described above."

MW are allocated as usual, by the player controlling the targeted unit. The shield drones would intercept mortal wounds which hit the commander. When the shield drones are destroyed MW for them are lost.


But the normal rules for wound allocation talk about allocating THE wound, not about wounds plural - you'd be allocating wounds one at a time, so when the shield drones are destroyed you can't allocate to the drones any more.
   
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Deadly Dire Avenger




 BaconCatBug wrote:
grazingshot wrote:
In the end in this case it doesn't matter though. Savior protocol doesn't trigger for mortal wounds, just regular wounds...
Savior Protocols triggers on ALL wounds. Mortal wounds are special only in that they automatically wound and don't allow any saves whatsoever. They trigger things that happen when a model is wounded (before damage is inflicted).


Wounds and Mortal Wounds are not the same thing, and something that triggers on one does not trigger for the other unless the rule specifically calls out that it does.

The warlord trait tenacious survivor specifically mentions it works on both wounds and mortal wounds.
The Eldar Farseer ability Ghosthelm only triggers on mortal wounds.
Saviour Protocols only triggers for wounds.

Each ability is different and will list what type of wounds they work on. This is done intentionally, so in the case of Tau here mortal wounds is a valid way to bypass drones.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




grazingshot wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
grazingshot wrote:
In the end in this case it doesn't matter though. Savior protocol doesn't trigger for mortal wounds, just regular wounds...
Savior Protocols triggers on ALL wounds. Mortal wounds are special only in that they automatically wound and don't allow any saves whatsoever. They trigger things that happen when a model is wounded (before damage is inflicted).


Wounds and Mortal Wounds are not the same thing, and something that triggers on one does not trigger for the other unless the rule specifically calls out that it does.

The warlord trait tenacious survivor specifically mentions it works on both wounds and mortal wounds.
The Eldar Farseer ability Ghosthelm only triggers on mortal wounds.
Saviour Protocols only triggers for wounds.

Each ability is different and will list what type of wounds they work on. This is done intentionally, so in the case of Tau here mortal wounds is a valid way to bypass drones.

So noone is ever wounded by mortal wounds then?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






grazingshot wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
grazingshot wrote:
In the end in this case it doesn't matter though. Savior protocol doesn't trigger for mortal wounds, just regular wounds...
Savior Protocols triggers on ALL wounds. Mortal wounds are special only in that they automatically wound and don't allow any saves whatsoever. They trigger things that happen when a model is wounded (before damage is inflicted).


Wounds and Mortal Wounds are not the same thing, and something that triggers on one does not trigger for the other unless the rule specifically calls out that it does.

The warlord trait tenacious survivor specifically mentions it works on both wounds and mortal wounds.
The Eldar Farseer ability Ghosthelm only triggers on mortal wounds.
Saviour Protocols only triggers for wounds.

Each ability is different and will list what type of wounds they work on. This is done intentionally, so in the case of Tau here mortal wounds is a valid way to bypass drones.
Sorry, but that is not true. All mortal wounds are wounds, but not all wounds are mortal wounds. Tenacious Survivor doesn't mention mortal wounds whatsoever. "Ignore Wound" abilities ignore mortal wounds (as confirmed by the FAQ) and all ignore wound effects simply say "loses a wound." The Ghosthelm only works on mortal wounds because it explicitly says so.

You have it backwards here, sorry.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/18 22:57:35


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+++++There are currently ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTEEN (115) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

From the main rulebook FAQ:

Q: Can abilities such as Disgustingly Resilient be used to ignore wounds if they were inflicted by mortal wounds?

A: Yes.

'Disgustingly Resilient' says nothing about Mortal Wounds.

'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in gb
Death-Dealing Dark Angels Devastator




Sleeping in the Rock

You'd think the decent thing to do would be apply the wounds to the drones first, otherwise the wounds applied to the drones just evaporate when they die and it's as if you hadn't inflicted them. You'd think they'd have to survive their crippling injury before they can leap in front of the proverbial bullet. But alas GW are unclear. And i'd have to agree that when totally unclear. you just roll off with the opponent. It's a shame and seems like a slight touch of laziness on GWs part to be unclear in this way. But I think the roll off rule would be the best bet to avoid awkwardness.

EDIT: And I agree, all mortal wounds are wounds. But not all wounds are mortal wounds.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/19 18:18:32


"In Warfare, preparation is the key. Determine that which your foe prizes the most. Then site your heavy weapons so that they overlook it. In this way, you may be quite sure that you shall never want for targets."
— Lion El'Jonson


"What I cannot crush with words I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard!"
- Lord Commander Solar Macharius
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I was going to type some random things, but I re-read the entry of "Saviour Protocols" in Battlescribe;

"If a <SEPT> INFANTRY or <SEPT> BATTLESUIT unit within 3" of a friendly <SEPT> DRONES unit is wounded by an enemy attack,..."

Presuming that's actually the wording - are Psychic Powers even "attacks"?

I don't see the word "attack" used anywhere in the Psychic Phase description, but I DO see it used as a word in both the Shooting Phase, and Combat Phase ("number of attacks", "resolve attacks").

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/19 19:32:40


 
   
 
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