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Question:

Can I declare a charge against a transport vehicle AND the unit inside the transport, assuming both are within 12".

Why? Because I want to charge a transport with my Khorne Berserkers, pop it, and then still get to attack the guys inside with my attack again special rule.

Question #2 (unrelated):

Melee attackers can attack if they are within 1" of a model in base contact. Do they need to be entirely within 1" or can a part of their base be within 1"? If I have a model in base contact that can attack, a model behind him that can attack, what about the 3rd rank of models? Since the bases are less than 1" in diameter, the 3rd rank has part of their base within 1".

1) Well, the new FAQ does say that they consider the unit in the transport as on the battlefield. I suspect they don't mean for that to extending to being able to declare a charge against it, though. The problem is trying to measure to the unit inside the vehicle to prove they're within 12".

2) nearest edge of the base has to be within 1". It doesn't have to be wholly within 1", and you probably don't want to be in base contact (can't pile in to adjust where you're at).

 Kharneth wrote:
Question:

Can I declare a charge against a transport vehicle AND the unit inside the transport, assuming both are within 12".

Why? Because I want to charge a transport with my Khorne Berserkers, pop it, and then still get to attack the guys inside with my attack again special rule.

Question #2 (unrelated):

Melee attackers can attack if they are within 1" of a model in base contact. Do they need to be entirely within 1" or can a part of their base be within 1"? If I have a model in base contact that can attack, a model behind him that can attack, what about the 3rd rank of models? Since the bases are less than 1" in diameter, the 3rd rank has part of their base within 1".

I believe the clarification on transports and reinforcements is specifically for counting reinforcements, and there's another FAQ answer that specifically says units in a transport aren't affected by Aura abilities even when the transport allows them to "shoot out of it", so I would assume you cannot declare a charge against the unit itself. Better pop it before the charge phase.

If you have 3 dudes base to base in a straight line the third guy wouldn't be able to fight unless you've got 25mm bases (while all marine sized infantry used to come on those, they should now be on 32mm bases. But of course, if you bought them with 25mm, go ahead I guess). However if you put them base to base in a diagonal pattern (I don't know how else to describe it...) they should be able to fight in 4 ranks
Found this picture that illustrates it better:

1) No, you cannot.

2) "Within" means only a sliver of the base has to be within.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
1) No, you cannot.

2) "Within" means only a sliver of the base has to be within.

Can you explain how you know that you cannot declare a charge against a unit within a transport in addition to the transport itself? I'm aware that my charge will fail, but what I'm not sure of is if I'm allowed to declare it.

Additionally, if I surround the transport with my unit and then destroy the transport will the unit inside be destroyed as well as they are unable to disembark the vehicle without remaining 1" away from an enemy? This feels really mean.

 Kharneth wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
1) No, you cannot.

2) "Within" means only a sliver of the base has to be within.

Can you explain how you know that you cannot declare a charge against a unit within a transport in addition to the transport itself? I'm aware that my charge will fail, but what I'm not sure of is if I'm allowed to declare it.

You can only declare a charge against units within 12". Distances to units inside a transport cannot be measured, since these units are not on the table.

And yes you can surround a transport to prevent models from getting out, but it's pretty difficult in practice.

To declare a charge against a unit, that unit must be within 12" of the charger.

Distance is measured base to base.

Do you see the problem ?

Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Common sense also says my marines have 30 wounds and never miss.

The rules are clear. You cannot measure the distance to the unit inside the transport because they are not on the battlefield. Thus you cannot declare a charge towards them because they are not within 12". The distance between your unit and them is <Null Value> which is not within 12".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Common sense also says my marines have 30 wounds and never miss.

The rules are clear. You cannot measure the distance to the unit inside the transport because they are not on the battlefield.

No, that’s cheating. Not common sense. And it’s a tired fallacy. But I agree with you, common sense (whatever your take on it) is irrelevant as the rules do not allow you to charge units not actually on the table.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Common sense also says my marines have 30 wounds and never miss.

The rules are clear. You cannot measure the distance to the unit inside the transport because they are not on the battlefield.

No, that’s cheating. Not common sense. And it’s a tired fallacy. But I agree with you, common sense (whatever your take on it) is irrelevant as the rules do not allow you to charge units not actually on the table.

Yes, it certainly is cheating! lol. Was a very poor example. Oh well. No harm in consolidating into the unit I pop out of the transport.

 Kharneth wrote:
As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Yes, but the enemy models just need to be within 3" of any part of their transport to legally get out, even if your models stand between them and their transport.
If your guys have 25mm bases, you need at least two full rows of guys to surround a vehicle (that's quite a big unit already). With 32mm bases you need a bit fewer, especially if you measure very carefully so that almost everyone is close to 1" away from the transport, but it's still incredibly difficult to not leave enough gaps (unless you have like 30 models in your unit).

fresus wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Yes, but the enemy models just need to be within 3" of any part of their transport to legally get out, even if your models stand between them and their transport.
If your guys have 25mm bases, you need at least two full rows of guys to surround a vehicle (that's quite a big unit already). With 32mm bases you need a bit fewer, especially if you measure very carefully so that almost everyone is close to 1" away from the transport, but it's still incredibly difficult to not leave enough gaps (unless you have like 30 models in your unit).

Oh, yeah I see. That certainly makes it easier. But tell me this. Do the models need to be wholly within 3" of the vehicle (as in, the entire base is within 3") or is it okay if just a sliver of the base is within 3" and the rest of the base sticks out? My friends and I have been playing that the entire base needs to be within 3" because that's how it has been for disembarking in previous editions.

If so, then it's impossible. My 32mm bases extend 1.25" away from the transport. If the enemy's 32mm bases are wholly within 3" of their transport than they will be within 1" because 1.25" + 1.25" = 2.5". They will only be .5" away at most. My guys do currently have 25mm bases, I didn't realize I needed to rebase my models. That's super annoying.

You don't need to be wholly within to disembark, only within. Only the tiniest sliver of base has to be within 3" (i.e. exactly at 3").

This is a legal disembark: https://prnt.sc/j6fgff

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Does that common sence mean I can shoot at the units in the transport;

 Niiai wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Does that common sence mean I can shoot at the units in the transport;

You cannot shoot a unit inside of a transport because you wouldn't have line of sight to the unit inside the transport. The same could be said of charging, though I don't remember if the rule for charging specified that you needed line of sight.

To be clear, I'm not asking "can I charge a unit inside of a transport," I know this is impossible. What I'm asking is "can I declare a charge against a unit inside of a transport?" I'm aware that my charge will fail because I cannot actually make it to an enemy unit inside of a transport. That's okay. I don't intend to actually successfully charge; I only wish to make a successful declaration. But it's sounding like that's not possible because the unit is not actually inside the transport. The transport is merely a dimensional portal that the unit can teleport out of. This makes sense since the rhino isn't actually physically large enough to fit 10 space marines lol.

To some, it might sound like I'm nit-picking the rules, but my question is fair. Shooting and charging are not identical.

@BaconCatBug, beautiful. So my berserkers can disembark 3" (effectively 4") and then move 6" before charging an enemy unit, effectively giving them a 10" movement ::evilgrin::

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Common sense also says my marines have 30 wounds and never miss.

That's not common sense, that's just guidelines for people writing Space Marine novels.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules are clear. You cannot measure the distance to the unit inside the transport because they are not on the battlefield. Thus you cannot declare a charge towards them because they are not within 12". The distance between your unit and them is <Null Value> which is not within 12".

Well, really the lack of rules as much as the rules. Previous editions had rules for measuring to the hull if there was a reason to measure to a unit in the transport, but we don't have that rule now. There isn't a rule to allow you to measure to a unit inside the transport. Even though with the new FAQ we are told that the embarked unit is actually deployed on the table and not off the battlefield. (they really need a raised eyebrow emoticon)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Niiai wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
Um, common sense tells me that the unit inside the transport is... well... inside the transport. So if the transport is within 12", so is the unit inside lol. I can understand if that's not how the rules work, but that's not some sort of mental gymnastics I'm doing there.

As for surrounding the vehicle... I charge it and cover the front side (let's call it a rhino). Then before I attack, my guys pile-in and those not in base contact move onto the side of the rhino, now I've covered the side. Then I attack, perhaps I destroy it, but if not I'll then get to pile in again before I attack again. I'll probably kill it after 10 berserkers attack it for the 2nd time and by this time I'll be all the way behind it. No? I'll have to try this out to see if it works, as you say it's harder in practice. I know for sure that if I succeed my friends will hate me!

Does that common sence mean I can shoot at the units in the transport;

If you can show the rule that lets you prove they're within your weapon's range (assuming the weapon doesn't require line of sight).

 Kharneth wrote:
You cannot shoot a unit inside of a transport because you wouldn't have line of sight to the unit inside the transport.

there are weapons that do not need LoS, but you would not be able to measure to see how far away the embarked unit is anyway.

The same could be said of charging, though I don't remember if the rule for charging specified that you needed line of sight.

You do not need LoS to declare a charge.

To be clear, I'm not asking "can I charge a unit inside of a transport," I know this is impossible. What I'm asking is "can I declare a charge against a unit inside of a transport?" I'm aware that my charge will fail because I cannot actually make it to an enemy unit inside of a transport. That's okay. I don't intend to actually successfully charge; I only wish to make a successful declaration. But it's sounding like that's not possible because the unit is not actually inside the transport.

No you can not declare the unit inside the transport as a target of the charge because of Step 2 of the charge phase rules. The unit that is embarked has no way, within the rules, to be measured to. Therefore you can not declare a charge since they are not within 12 inches.

BRB wrote:2. Choose Targets
Once you have chosen an eligible unit, select one or more enemy units within 12" of them as the target(s) of the charge. Each target unit can then attempt to fire Overwatch.

The transport is merely a dimensional portal that the unit can teleport out of.

What?

This makes sense since the rhino isn't actually physically large enough to fit 10 space marines lol.

it actually can. There was a rhino where some guy modeled it so they were all sitting down. they fit, but just.

Literally none of this argument is actually necessary, the answer is simple.

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked"

Does targeting them with a charge affect the unit? Yup.

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Literally none of this argument is actually necessary, the answer is simple.

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked"

Does targeting them with a charge affect the unit? Yup.

Yup, RAW you can not declare a charge on an embarked unit. Personally, I think an errata to allow doing so would make a lot of sense and not be too unbalanced, as being able to fight those disembarking a transport after it is destroyed when one is able to fight twice is fairly reasonable.

 ikeulhu wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:
Literally none of this argument is actually necessary, the answer is simple.

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while they are embarked"

Does targeting them with a charge affect the unit? Yup.

Yup, RAW you can not declare a charge on an embarked unit. Personally, I think an errata to allow doing so would make a lot of sense and not be too unbalanced, as being able to fight those disembarking a transport after it is destroyed when one is able to fight twice is fairly reasonable.

The better solution, though, would just be to adjust "fight twice" rules to say that the second fight does not have to be against a unit you charged.

The better solution would be to just accept the rules are written in such a way that you can't attack the occupants of a transport you charged. You can still pile into them, just not attack them. The rule is designed specifically to prevent the chaining of combats via consolidate that was endemic to earlier editions.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The better solution would be to just accept the rules are written in such a way that you can't attack the occupants of a transport you charged. You can still pile into them, just not attack them. The rule is designed specifically to prevent the chaining of combats via consolidate that was endemic to earlier editions.

Agreed. To first accept a rule one must understand it with clarity, which is why I posted an inquiry.

I do believe a wonderful middle ground has been created here in 8th where a unit can attack their consolidated target provided they declared a charge against them during the same turn. This question has been answered and I had moved onto a new question, but people still wanted to argue about it. So that's on them.

My friends had previously ruled that declaring a charge against the unit inside was fair (I've got good friends!) because "it would make sense that the chargers would want to fight the guys inside," however now I will inform them of the correct interpretation. I think it still makes sense because how do my khorne berserkers know that there is a unit inside the transport? They wouldn't until the unit disembarked.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kharneth wrote:
The transport is merely a dimensional portal that the unit can teleport out of.

What?

 Kharneth wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The better solution would be to just accept the rules are written in such a way that you can't attack the occupants of a transport you charged. You can still pile into them, just not attack them. The rule is designed specifically to prevent the chaining of combats via consolidate that was endemic to earlier editions.

Agreed. To first accept a rule one must understand it with clarity, which is why I posted an inquiry.

I do believe a wonderful middle ground has been created here in 8th where a unit can attack their consolidated target provided they declared a charge against them during the same turn. This question has been answered and I had moved onto a new question, but people still wanted to argue about it. So that's on them.

It hasn't been answered that you can declare a charge against a consolidated target. People "still" wanting to argue about it isn't on them, it's on you not accepting what the other people are telling you. Feel free to provide a rules quotation to support your position if you think that is the actual RAW.

 Kharneth wrote:
My friends had previously ruled that declaring a charge against the unit inside was fair (I've got good friends!) because "it would make sense that the chargers would want to fight the guys inside," however now I will inform them of the correct interpretation. I think it still makes sense because how do my khorne berserkers know that there is a unit inside the transport? They wouldn't until the unit disembarked.

It's fine if they want to house rule that way. As long as they realize that it's a house rule and not to expect it to be played that way everywhere, they can avoid a misunderstanding and heartbreak if they were to try it with some other people or at a tournament.

Karneth wrote:If I am inside of a vehicle on the highway, the vehicle is on the highway and so am I. Therefore, I am on the highway. Understanding the proper interpretation of the rules, if I am inside a transport vehicle on the battlefield, the transport vehicle is on the battlefield, but I am not. When I disembark, or the vehicle is destroyed, I enter the battlefield. Prior to disembarking, I am not on the battlefield. I am not truly inside the transport vehicle. My position in spacetime is undefined. The transport is not a transport at all, it's a dimensional rift in spacetime. The unit inside the transport does not merely walk out of the transport vehicle, oh no! This would be too simple. Instead, the unit is teleported from an indefinite space in time to the doorway of the vehicle.

An ice cream cone thrown out of a passing truck hits your vehicle, so therefore it also hits you? Normally no (though, like most analogies, this one falls apart if it's a convertible )

@Doctortom,

1) My question has been answered, though your comment suggests an entirely different question was asked. You cannot declare a charge against a consolidated target. You cannot declare a charge against a unit embarked in a vehicle. I can consolidate into the unit after they disembark from their destroyed vehicle, but I cannot attack them during that Fight Phase. I don't need to provide RAW as they've already been provided. See the responses above for clarification.

2) It was more of one of those instances where we weren't sure, so they threw me a bone because it sounded fair. I don't like house rules and do not intend to add to theirs.

3) Your analogy is an improper conversion. If you are inside of something that is struck, you yourself may or may not be struck as well, however, your location is identical to that which you are inside of. They're simply different things. In no real world setting can you be inside of something and, at the same time, in a location different from the thing you are inside of. You can't take this logic and then attribute it to something entirely different and expect it to hold up.

Keeping real world analogies out of YMDC is best, as you end up over-discussing the analogy and shedding no light on the rules. ;-)

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Keeping real world analogies out of YMDC is best, as you end up over-discussing the analogy and shedding no light on the rules. ;-)

Again, the rules question has already been fully answered with RAW references. All that's left is fun chatter.

 Kharneth wrote:
Understanding the proper interpretation of the rules, if I am inside a transport vehicle on the battlefield, the transport vehicle is on the battlefield, but I am not.

As per the FaQ this is false.

When I disembark, or the vehicle is destroyed, I enter the battlefield. Prior to disembarking, I am not on the battlefield.

again as per the FAQ, a unit that is embarked counts as being on the battlefield.

I am not truly inside the transport vehicle.

As in the models are not physically inside the other model? yes, but that does not matter, for game purposes the unit is embarked.

My position in spacetime is undefined. The transport is not a transport at all, it's a dimensional rift in spacetime. The unit inside the transport does not merely walk out of the transport vehicle, oh no! This would be too simple. Instead, the unit is teleported from an indefinite space in time to the doorway of the vehicle.

It is as if there was a green and yellow portal that opened and allowed the unit to enter the battlefield from god-knows-where. Ever seen Rick and Morty? It makes perfect sense! lol

See above.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en-1.pdf

Unit inside a transport is NOT on the battlefield, it is just included for the purposes of Tactical Reserves Beta Rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Unit inside a transport is NOT on the battlefield, it is just included for the purposes of Tactical Reserves Beta Rule.

The fact that the reference is included in Tactical Reserves does not mean that it only applies to Tactical Reserves.

"Units set up on the battlefield including those that are embarked in Transports that are set up on the battlefield"

The semantic meaning of that statement is unambiguous. The set "units that are on the battlefield" includes the subset "units embarked in Transports that are on the battlefield."

I'm sorry that after like a year of literally everyone telling you that this was obvious, GW actually made it clear that you were wrong about this (though, you're always complaining that GW isn't clear enough, so you'd think you be happy to be proven wrong here), but they did, and it's' time to give it up, man.