Switch Theme:

GW doesn't know how to balance (rant inside)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Anyone remember conscripts before they were nerfed? They obviously needed to be nerfed. Lots of people had good ideas like...Conscripts shouldn't benefit from commissars or they shouldn't be able to take orders. What GW did to them though was just wrong.
They nerfed the commissar to actually do more harm than good.
They made them cost the same as an infantry - which it is just a worse version of.
They also made it where they could only take orders on a 4+ and reduced their max squad size to 30. (I think this fix alone would have fixed the unit and it would still be playable and strong)

Essentially - they made one of the best units in the game into something completely unplayable. Now - they are at it again. This time though - the consequence is much greater. Their fix for hive tyrants has some unintended consequences I am sure - it's basically making gun line the only way to play the game. I can attest - gunlines don't need any help right now - it's just silly to buff them.

First I'd just like to point out that GW had the right fix in mind with the deep strike/reserve deployment allowance being determined by # of points instead of # of drops. This would have been more than sufficient to stop the tyrants spam silliness (That and add a point cost to MRC - and simultaneously reducing the broodlords(he uses MRC too) cost to compensate). That fix alone would make DSing more than 4 tyrants impossible. As someone who regularly used 3 of them - it wasn't game breaking. Anyways - now deep-striking 1 tyrant is impossible because they made a beta rule that makes DS out of your deployment zone turn 1 an illegal move. Then they also made a rule that you can't bring more than 3 of any non troop or transport (I guess to prevent anything like this happening in the future).
So they hit the tyrant in basically the same way as conscripts. Too much - now the unit is entirely unplayable.
-Unable to DS turn 1
-More expensive
-unable to take more than 3 - plus smite nerf
-and just for icing on the cake - nerf it's ability to beta strike too with the swarm lord.

While they have over nerfed the tyrant - in the process they have nerfed a significant portion of the game. One of the coolest things about this eddition was the usefulness of DS. DS lost it's risk - could be used turn 1 - and you could even assault after it. For many people this was the most exciting part of the new edition. "wow I can actually use this unit now" - "wow DS isn't entirely useless now" - ect. I don't think these DS rules will become law - they are just too bad to go through. However - the fact that GW even suggested it - is deeply troubling. It suggest a complete disconnect with the game and how it works. If GW was our president and we it's people - this would be grounds for impeachment. I'm normally not about house rules and like to play by the book but at this point I am generally more interested in making modified rules for the game myself and the guys I play with are pretty much in the same place.

HBY?


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.
- Most everything else is unable to DS turn 1 or be repeated more than thrice or to beta strike via warp time

So the actual relative nerf?

They went up 20 points.

I will recognize that turn 1 DS was garbage for armies who don't have regular access to super cheap troops even if i never had issues with it.

   
Made in vn
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






What the hell is up with this 3 data sheet rule? It's not even for matched play! It's just a suggestion for events and some events even had that rule already in place. The buff to shooting and Horde CP though is annoying. I think I went up by 2 CP while my mates normal 2k army went up by 10.... so.... yeah.

What annoys me is the livestream. They outright call out the problem with their own words (saying people are getting blown and shot off the table turn 1 or elite armies have no cp while big armies get way to many) and then come out with rules that don't even attempt to address those problems (they nerf cc and buff the CP of bigger armies that already had too many). None of any of the rules in the faq broke 40k or are bad... They're just evidence that the dev team is outright insane.

Seriously I got hyped when I saw them say these things but then got confused when they said the rules. It's like going to the doctors and he sits you down and tells you you have a broken knee (with plenty of evidence to back him up) and then he lays you down and sticks a knife in your elbow to fix the broken knee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 19:00:07


 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

This has been a problem forever. GW knee-jerk reacts without actually understanding WHY something is too strong or too weak. 8th edition is no different. Many changes seem to come out of nowhere to quickly fix an "issue" without them seeing what the actual problem is.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.
- Most everything else is unable to DS turn 1 or be repeated more than thrice or to beta strike via warp time

So the actual relative nerf?

They went up 20 points.

I will recognize that turn 1 DS was garbage for armies who don't have regular access to super cheap troops even if i never had issues with it.


Nah - I dealth with it many way. Such as screening my deployment zones with flyers...90% of DS units can't charge flyers. Flyrants and smashquinious are immune to that but all you need is a few infantry units to put in front of your lines and you effectively turn off meaningful turn 1 assault.

It is true that DS nerf isn't a specific nerf to flyrants. But it is a significant nerf to non gun line armies. Flyrants aren't viable anymore by any means. They aren't even really worth their previous point cost with the DS nerf.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Wayniac wrote:
This has been a problem forever. Dakka knee-jerk reacts without actually understanding WHY something is too strong or too weak.


FTFY
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Spoiler:
 lolman1c wrote:
What the hell is up with this 3 data sheet rule? It's not even for matched play! It's just a suggestion for events and some events even had that rule already in place. The buff to shooting and Horde CP though is annoying. I think I went up by 2 CP while my mates normal 2k army went up by 10.... so.... yeah.

What annoys me is the livestream. They outright call out the problem with their own words (saying people are getting blown and shot off the table turn 1 or elite armies have no cp while big armies get way to many) and then come out with rules that don't even attempt to address those problems (they nerf cc and buff the CP of bigger armies that already had too many). None of any of the rules in the faq broke 40k or are bad... They're just evidence that the dev team is outright insane.

Seriously I got hyped when I saw them say these things but then got confused when they said the rules. It's like going to the doctors and he sits you down and tells you you have a broken knee (with plenty of evidence to back him up) and then he lays you down and sticks a knife in your elbow to fix the broken knee.


"It's like going to the doctors and he sits you down and tells you you have a broken knee (with plenty of evidence to back him up) and then he lays you down and sticks a knife in your elbow to fix the broken knee"

Haha - exactly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
This has been a problem forever. Dakka knee-jerk reacts without actually understanding WHY something is too strong or too weak.


FTFY

It's not Dakka bro - Did we release this FAQ?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/17 19:12:02


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User





Dear lord, you'd think that games workshop had taken a blowtorch to every model that could deepstrike and then pissed a golden stream direct from Nottingham onto the keyboards of everyone who owned them.

It is important to remember that the "rule of three" is a recommendation, a suggestion, for competitive events. Does everyone here only play in tournaments? You can ignore the "rule of three" in your FLGS - and you don't even need the other player's permission, because it is a fething recommendation.

Further, you can still deepstrike, with 50% of your force, you just have to do it turn two. The horror.

The upshot of this, is simply that many games will last longer and that gun-line and elite armies will have to invest less heavily in screens (although doing so will hurt them, as aforesaid, in turn 2).

The game isn't, so far as I can tell, fethed. If you are feeling frustrated and pissed of, maybe you just need a break from the constant, insane and breathless internet metagame chasing.
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





I'll solve your issues with gun lines:

Use some decent terrain.

You're welcome.

Some people are so melodramatic. My goodness.
   
Made in us
Trustworthy Shas'vre





Cobleskill

So, does the datasheet limitation override the Tau Commander one?

'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
Racerguy180 wrote:
rules come and go, models are forever...like herpes.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I would imagine both are in effect.

Meaning you must take 0-3 Commanders. You must also take 0-1 Commanders.
   
Made in us
War Walker Pilot with Withering Fire




Oh, look...it's Xeno posting another angry, melodramatic rant. Must be a day ending in "y."
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think all of the changes are a large step in the right direction for the betterment of the game.

Turn 1 assault deepstrike is something that was not possible in previous editions of the game. They tried it in 8th, and it just doesn't work. Armies without chaff units were at a major disadvantage, games were frequently ending on 2 or 3, and the person going second had no chance to prepare other than the initial set up. All of these things make the game less fun.

Turn 2 or 3 deepstriking isn't useless (look at any previous edition) as it forces the other player to move and position in such a way as to mitigate their effectiveness. You just might not need more than 1 or 2 units of deepstrikers. And deepstriking is still better than it was in previous editions, since you can still assault out of it, and there isn't any randomness about which units come in on what turn.

The 0-3 unit limit forces people to use a bit of variety in their lists. I don't see how anyone would think this is a bad thing. Pretty much any list with 4+ of the same unit is just straight up boring.

The game is different now, yes. Certain builds and units might not be as good, sure. But the game seems more fun and balanced to me for a wider number of factions and players, and this isn't the last FAQ we'll see. It's definitely not perfect yet, but these changes all feel like a step in the right direction to me.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 lolman1c wrote:
What the hell is up with this 3 data sheet rule? It's not even for matched play! It's just a suggestion for events and some events even had that rule already in place. The buff to shooting and Horde CP though is annoying. I think I went up by 2 CP while my mates normal 2k army went up by 10.... so.... yeah.

What annoys me is the livestream. They outright call out the problem with their own words (saying people are getting blown and shot off the table turn 1 or elite armies have no cp while big armies get way to many) and then come out with rules that don't even attempt to address those problems (they nerf cc and buff the CP of bigger armies that already had too many). None of any of the rules in the faq broke 40k or are bad... They're just evidence that the dev team is outright insane.

Seriously I got hyped when I saw them say these things but then got confused when they said the rules. It's like going to the doctors and he sits you down and tells you you have a broken knee (with plenty of evidence to back him up) and then he lays you down and sticks a knife in your elbow to fix the broken knee.


Guard players aren't even using all their CP now, so how does giving them more CP make them any better? Giving battalions more CP helps small elite armies FAR more than Guard armies.
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




United Kingdom

The DS nerf was a much needed addition. No more will a player get hammered by a first turn assault by daemons, terminators, assault marines...etc before they have even had a turn of the game. It may not seem right for the DS heavy armies but it's fair for the second player.

40k: Space Marines (Rift Wardens) - 8050pts.
T9A: Vampire Covenants 2060pts. 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 BlackLobster wrote:
The DS nerf was a much needed addition. No more will a player get hammered by a first turn assault by daemons, terminators, assault marines...etc before they have even had a turn of the game. It may not seem right for the DS heavy armies but it's fair for the second player.


Ah yes, because the only alpha strike people should get is shooting.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Dandelion wrote:

Guard players aren't even using all their CP now, so how does giving them more CP make them any better? Giving battalions more CP helps small elite armies FAR more than Guard armies.

And makes cheap allied guard detachments even more useful for CP farming...

   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




 BlackLobster wrote:
The DS nerf was a much needed addition. No more will a player get hammered by a first turn assault by daemons, terminators, assault marines...etc before they have even had a turn of the game. It may not seem right for the DS heavy armies but it's fair for the second player.


Well, the thing with Daemons is, if you don't play Tzeentch or Nurgle you don't really have stuff you want to set up and endure the enemies shooting phase with. Or even worse, 2 whole shooting phases, as you could go second. Slaanesh may be able to reach enemies turn 1 as they are pretty fast, but ALL Slaanesh models are rather overcosted for what they deliver in the end. I wouldn't mind if Seekers were as good as Reaver Jetbikes, but guess what, they are much worse. I play mostly Khorne and Slaanesh Daemons and I have to say: I know what walking my units up the board feels like, since before the codex I couldn't even DS. My army was torn to shreds by all armies that can put out decent shooting.

I really don't mind having to wait one turn to pressure my opponent with DSing Bloodletters and the like, but then I would like some limitation for shooting based armies as well. (And yes the tables I play on have decent amount of terrain. But still, if my enemy isn't half slowed he will be able to set up his units in a way they will see something they can shoot. And to much terrain can hurt me as well, as for example on narrow city tables it can get impossible to get chariots and the like into CC, and ruins with second floors can stop CC altogether.)
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




They do seem to overcorrect-- three solutions for every one problem, and that is very annoying. However, I will say that, while the increase in CP will benefit larger armies, I believe the rules team said that their goal was for players to have more CP in general and for games to use more strategems. So while it doesn't address the problem of elite armies having a disproportionately smaller number of CP-- I think overall it does help elite armies. It also has the benefit of making Outrider, Vanguard, et al., less appealing.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





SonofSlamguinius wrote:
They do seem to overcorrect-- three solutions for every one problem, and that is very annoying. However, I will say that, while the increase in CP will benefit larger armies, I believe the rules team said that their goal was for players to have more CP in general and for games to use more strategems. So while it doesn't address the problem of elite armies having a disproportionately smaller number of CP-- I think overall it does help elite armies.


Yea, i'd rather see CP use expand as some things don't truly shine until you use CP.

It also has the benefit of making Outrider, Vanguard, et al., less appealing.


This is my favorite part - list writing has an deeper consequence.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/18 00:48:54


 
   
Made in gb
Bounding Assault Marine




United Kingdom

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
The DS nerf was a much needed addition. No more will a player get hammered by a first turn assault by daemons, terminators, assault marines...etc before they have even had a turn of the game. It may not seem right for the DS heavy armies but it's fair for the second player.


Ah yes, because the only alpha strike people should get is shooting.


Small arms fire is not very devastating usually on turn 1. Artillery type units I can understand but unless you put a rule in place that says they can't fire turn one.

40k: Space Marines (Rift Wardens) - 8050pts.
T9A: Vampire Covenants 2060pts. 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.

Debatable. Commissars are still garbage IMO, especially given the number of armies that have the same damn feature as them pre-nerf.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




PA Unitied States



In their defense they have shareholders breathing down their neck to sell more. It doesn't tend to allow for a balanced game. They may have had better rules lined up and someone said nope cant do those rules, you'll kill sales of these boxes.

22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+ 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 rhinoceraids wrote:
I'll solve your issues with gun lines:

Use some decent terrain.

You're welcome.

Some people are so melodramatic. My goodness.


You mean, the terrain that doesn't offer cover to any models trying to advance up the board, but does offer cover (and now total close combat immunity) to any unit you want to park stationary in the upper levels?

More terrain is a joke. If I'm playing my Dark Eldar, I'd rather face a gunline army on planet bowling ball - at least then I might get first turn and be able to target the basilisks/mortars.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.

Debatable. Commissars are still garbage IMO, especially given the number of armies that have the same damn feature as them pre-nerf.


On the flip side of that no one really has conscripts with orders. Yes everyone has their own thing, but the force multipliers available to conscripts are arguably much greater. I don't think they're problematic at this stage though. I was looking for GW to differentiate IS and Conscripts by making IS 5 points, but it looks like they opted to provide a slight buff to the other direction. And honestly i'm pretty ok with that as long as some other IG weapons go up in price.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




PA Unitied States

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.

Debatable. Commissars are still garbage IMO, especially given the number of armies that have the same damn feature as them pre-nerf.


I do Agree that the ability is still sub par to what they were before and the correction to the new rule is much needed since it should have never been able to cause a worse morale check. Points decrease for them makes them slightly more playable but still they have a limited use. Your not going to be fielding more than one or two. Zero if your Valhallan.

Conscripts are garbage since they ignore commands 50% of the time and shoot with a 5+. If they took a command 100% that would make them better.

With the new CP boost in battalion and brigade there is no reason to take conscripts when you can spend those extra CP on Combine Squads strategem for regular infantry squads and have 20 4+ to shoo, takes commands 100% or the time. They just might benefit from a commissar unless your Valhallan and don't give a t-shirts save for moral.

22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+ 
   
Made in gb
Sneaky Lictor






Why not... try play testing 10-15 games using different armies, different builds and different scenarios and create a constructive topic in which we could combine successful ideas from other people that have done the same and construct a thoughtful and valuable email to GW suggesting the pitfalls of the beta change and how to implement it properly?

A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal. 
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings. 
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves. 
Warhammer 40k  - Tyranids. 
 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
- Commissars just got buffed in rules and points and by extension conscripts.

Debatable. Commissars are still garbage IMO, especially given the number of armies that have the same damn feature as them pre-nerf.


On the flip side of that no one really has conscripts with orders. Yes everyone has their own thing, but the force multipliers available to conscripts are arguably much greater. I don't think they're problematic at this stage though. I was looking for GW to differentiate IS and Conscripts by making IS 5 points, but it looks like they opted to provide a slight buff to the other direction. And honestly i'm pretty ok with that as long as some other IG weapons go up in price.

Quite frankly, I'm not ok with this. Sure, nobody else has exactly what Conscripts are--but Guard natively don't have any kind of "regenerate" ability for their units either. They're like Alpha Legion in that they were exclusive to one specific subfaction(Valhallans).

Also if you want to 'balance' the fact that Guard have Mortars, then just make them available strictly to Heavy Weapon Squads. Said it before and will say it again.
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




PA Unitied States

 AaronWilson wrote:
Why not... try play testing 10-15 games using different armies, different builds and different scenarios and create a constructive topic in which we could combine successful ideas from other people that have done the same and construct a thoughtful and valuable email to GW suggesting the pitfalls of the beta change and how to implement it properly?


Reason in this climate, you must be insane... LOL

22 yrs in the hobby
:Eldar: 10K+ pts, 2500 pts
1850 pts
Vampire Counts 4000+ 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Rune Stonegrinder wrote:

With the new CP boost in battalion and brigade there is no reason to take conscripts when you can spend those extra CP on Combine Squads strategem for regular infantry squads and have 20 4+ to shoo, takes commands 100% or the time. They just might benefit from a commissar unless your Valhallan and don't give a t-shirts save for moral.


Sure - excellent point there. You are limited in regards to that a bit, but it's viable.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: