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This was an interesting question which came up last night.

For a fortification like a bastion can you place models in it and on top of it?

E.g. could I put my dark reapers in the bastion and my rangers on the top? I couldn't find any rules that expressly say one way or another if you can do same but you definitely see people put models on top of sky shields and those are fortifications too.

Anyone have any rules interpretation?


Additional question if standing on top of a bastion would you benefit from cover or not?

No one really knows.

Building models are not very well defined in the rules.

No you cannot place models on top to other models, you have no permission to do so. The datasheets for models such as a bastion have guidance whih suggests that the battlements are decorational, to indicate what units are embarked.

As a happy update to this old issue, the new faq has finally given the skyshield landing pad the rule it needs for models to actually stand on it!

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No you cannot place models on top to other models, you have no permission to do so. The datasheets for models such as a bastion have guidance whih suggests that the battlements are decorational, to indicate what units are embarked.

As a happy update to this old issue, the new faq has finally given the skyshield landing pad the rule it needs for models to actually stand on it!

It’s actually far from happy. It’s hilariously nonsensical.

The FAQ reads:

ERRATA
Page 63 – Skyshield Landing Pad
Add the following ability:
‘Landing Pad: Enemy models can move within 1" of a Skyshield Landing Pad (and can move on top of it) as if it were a terrain feature. In addition, they do not need to Fall Back in order to move away from it if they start their turn within 1" of it, and being within 1" of a Skyshield Landing Pad in the Shooting phase does not prevent an enemy unit from shooting.’

Which means that enemies can move on and around it but your models can’t.

Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

the DESIGNERS NOTE, suggests you can put embarked models ontop of it to remind you they are inside, but this is simply a suggestion if you cant remember yourself.

RAW however do not give the battlements are rules for the purposes of cover, as these buildings are not ruins. However its not uncommon as a house rules to treats the battlements as barriers.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

Nothing in the rules actively prevents me from giving a gift of Salmon at the Temple of Inari Okami to give +1 to hit for all my Rhinos either.

The rules tell you what you can do. The rules say you can't put models on top of other models, thus you cannot, even for buildings.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

Nothing in the rules actively prevents me from giving a gift of Salmon at the Temple of Inari Okami to give +1 to hit for all my Rhinos either.

The rules tell you what you can do. The rules say you can't put models on top of other models, thus you cannot, even for buildings.

Caan you provide a page number for this in the BrB

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

the DESIGNERS NOTE, suggests you can put embarked models ontop of it to remind you they are inside, but this is simply a suggestion if you cant remember yourself.

RAW however do not give the battlements are rules for the purposes of cover, as these buildings are not ruins. However its not uncommon as a house rules to treats the battlements as barriers.

Question rsn't what rules prevent but what rules allow.

Gw writing as usual

Backwards logic. Can you find anything that says to treat fortifications with battlements any differently to other models.
Then ask yourself if you can stand any model on another model.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

Nothing in the rules actively prevents me from giving a gift of Salmon at the Temple of Inari Okami to give +1 to hit for all my Rhinos either.

The rules tell you what you can do. The rules say you can't put models on top of other models, thus you cannot, even for buildings.

Caan you provide a page number for this in the BrB

From the Battle Primer:

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

I suppose you could try and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome when declaring it will be hovering 1.1" above another friendly model, but I don't think that works because WMS only works if "a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where
you want." and other models are not terrain and you can only move vertically "to climb or traverse any scenery" and not other models.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

Nothing in the rules actively prevents me from giving a gift of Salmon at the Temple of Inari Okami to give +1 to hit for all my Rhinos either.

The rules tell you what you can do. The rules say you can't put models on top of other models, thus you cannot, even for buildings.

Caan you provide a page number for this in the BrB

From the Battle Primer:

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

I suppose you could try and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome when declaring it will be hovering 1.1" above another friendly model, but I don't think that works because WMS only works if "a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where
you want." and other models are not terrain and you can only move vertically "to climb or traverse any scenery" and not other models.

I don't see anything there that says they can't be deployed atop other models, merely moving through them. If you are deployed and don't move, you never once moved through them.

BCB is correct, you can’t put models on models. He’s not correct in saying you can hover - that’s a ridiculous concept.

There are a tonne of threads on this subject.

The Skyshield needs some common sense and agreement between players to function. The fortification buildings tell you in the rules they have a transport capacity, and to put models from embarked units on top as a reminder of who’s inside. They are not terrain so you cannot place other models on top (Skyshield house-ruling to function notwithstanding).

"can be moved virtical to traverse scenery is the key points here, you can move over and atop your fortifications as they are terrain that's you pay for and can do stuff.

And again, give me a page number not battle primer

 Backspacehacker wrote:
"can be moved virtical to traverse scenery is the key points here, you can move over and atop your fortifications as they are terrain that's you pay for and can do stuff.

And again, give me a page number not battle primer

Fortifications are models in your army in this edition, not terrain.

Example: “An Imperial Bastion is a single model equipped with four heavy bolters.”

If it was terrain it would say it was terrain and be in the Advanced Terrain Rules section. It isn’t.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
"can be moved virtical to traverse scenery is the key points here, you can move over and atop your fortifications as they are terrain that's you pay for and can do stuff.

And again, give me a page number not battle primer

Fortifications are models in your army in this edition, not terrain.

Example: “An Imperial Bastion is a single model equipped with four heavy bolters.”

If it was terrain it would say it was terrain and be in the Advanced Terrain Rules section. It isn’t.

Right, that's the misconception here. They're not scenery to be traversed, they're models. There's a distinction now because nothing calls any models with a datasheet "terrain" as far as I can think of.

If you're using it as terrain, it's not a model in your army. Because nothing stops us from using these things as terrain on the board, but once you pay points for it, and use its datasheet, it's a model in your army, and we're instructed on how models interact with each other.

Under your assumption you could not enter into an imperial trench either beecause it is a model.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Under your assumption you could not enter into an imperial trench either beecause it is a model.

Many fortifications have special rules allowing them to be treated as terrain. Trenches do. Bunkers and bastions dont.

This really comes down to a RAW vs RAI argument though, which can be argued fairly on both sides. So I guess it's a matter of agree to disagree.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Under your assumption you could not enter into an imperial trench either beecause it is a model.

Defence Line? It may need some house ruling to function like the Skyshield. As written models cannot have models on them. If one does to work like the Skyshield you must discuss and agree it ahead of time, else by the rules you cannot.

Edit: so the Defence Line specifically tells you to treat it as Terrain after it is set up. More proof.

It’s also not an assumption, it’s the Core Rules.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
This really comes down to a RAW vs RAI argument though, which can be argued fairly on both sides. So I guess it's a matter of agree to disagree.

Disagree this is RAW vs RAI. My judgement is the designers note telling us how to use the battlements is a clear RAI that you are no longer supposed to put units up there.
7th had a whole bunch of rules about battlements, 8th has none. It's a change between editions, I don't see why it's so hard to get used to.
The RAW is also clear (apart from 50% of the skyshield rules sigh)

This is something that no one in my entire city, been playing at all 3 of our stores, or even in tournaments has even been brought up as an issue.

Which if it is clear, that you can't out them up there it's pretty well obviously not because there is so much abiguity about it. But then again, that's all of 8th I suppose so, take it with a grain of salt I guess?

I posted the exact same thread a few weeks back
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/753719.page

Personally I feel like the Skyshield is an amusing example of where we have clear rules that are obviously wrong.

I mean, let’s be honest, we all know what the Skyshield is meant to do and how it’s SUPPOSED to work. We also know that the rules directly forbid it being used for that purpose.

Anyone who tells you that RAW you can’t stand on your Skyshield is both correct and 100% ‘That Guy’.

The real tragedy is GW know that it’s broken and they tried to fix it... but they messed it up. Oh well, maybe next FAQ.


Devil’s Advocate for common sense: the rules state you cannot move through a unit. They don’t explicitly forbid moving over or onto a unit. Since units are not defined as having indefinite height we should assume that the unit itself stops where it’s model ends, no?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Fortifications are buildings as they have the building keyword. There is nothing written in the rules that actively prevents you from standing atop them.

Nothing in the rules actively prevents me from giving a gift of Salmon at the Temple of Inari Okami to give +1 to hit for all my Rhinos either.

The rules tell you what you can do. The rules say you can't put models on top of other models, thus you cannot, even for buildings.

Caan you provide a page number for this in the BrB

From the Battle Primer:

Moving
A model can be moved in any direction, to a distance, in inches, equal to or less than the Move characteristic on its datasheet. No part of the model’s base (or hull) can move further than this. It cannot be moved through other models or through terrain features such as walls, but can be moved vertically in order to climb or traverse any scenery.

I suppose you could try and claim Wobbly Model Syndrome when declaring it will be hovering 1.1" above another friendly model, but I don't think that works because WMS only works if "a particular piece of terrain makes it hard to put a model exactly where
you want." and other models are not terrain and you can only move vertically "to climb or traverse any scenery" and not other models.

I don't see anything there that says they can't be deployed atop other models, merely moving through them. If you are deployed and don't move, you never once moved through them.

So next time deploy your Heavy Weapons teams on top of Leman Russes and let the tanks move them to a position to better shoot the enemy...


Automatically Appended Next Post:


Maybe the 2018 Chapter Approved will make fortifications and buildings terrain again, though still using vehicle rules for being inside. It would be better than what we have right now.

Gendif wrote:
Personally I feel like the Skyshield is an amusing example of where we have clear rules that are obviously wrong.

I mean, let’s be honest, we all know what the Skyshield is meant to do and how it’s SUPPOSED to work. We also know that the rules directly forbid it being used for that purpose.

Anyone who tells you that RAW you can’t stand on your Skyshield is both correct and 100% ‘That Guy’.

The real tragedy is GW know that it’s broken and they tried to fix it... but they messed it up. Oh well, maybe next FAQ.


Devil’s Advocate for common sense: the rules state you cannot move through a unit. They don’t explicitly forbid moving over or onto a unit. Since units are not defined as having indefinite height we should assume that the unit itself stops where it’s model ends, no?

The core rules don’t permit moving onto a unit either, only terrain. So you can’t move on top of other models

Skyshield, totally agree. It’s obvious how to play it. But for other fortifications with rules that mention putting models on the battlements it’s like trying to have your cake and eat it. They’re clear on how you play them, and work within the rules, so you can’t starts travering them. A much easier topic to discuss in person with a reasonable opponent - very hard to do on the polarised internet.

Fortification =/= scenery/terrain/etc.

Not sure all fortifications have it, but certain fortifications tell you specifically to treat it like impassable terrain once destoryed. Until destroyed, you must follow the rules for "embarking" or entering a fortification as provided on its datasheet. If you place a model on top of a fortification, it is effectively "embarked" on the said fortification with transport capacity.

Effectively, if one argues that you can stand on top of a fortification without necessarilly "embarking" in it, then there's nothing that prevents anyone from placing a dreadnought on top of a rhino and having it move along with the rhino - which we all know is not allowed.

Fortification is a specific type of unit. Therefore it follows all the rules pertaining to a unit.

 skchsan wrote:
Fortification =/= scenery/terrain/etc.

Not sure all fortifications have it, but certain fortifications tell you specifically to treat it like impassable terrain once destoryed. Until destroyed, you must follow the rules for "embarking" or entering a fortification as provided on its datasheet. If you place a model on top of a fortification, it is effectively "embarked" on the said fortification with transport capacity.

Effectively, if one argues that you can stand on top of a fortification without necessarilly "embarking" in it, then there's nothing that prevents anyone from placing a dreadnought on top of a rhino and having it move along with the rhino - which we all know is not allowed.

Fortification is a specific type of unit. Therefore it follows all the rules pertaining to a unit.

I realy want someone to make a diarama of a leviathan dread shooting out the top hatch of a rhino now.

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Fortification =/= scenery/terrain/etc.

Not sure all fortifications have it, but certain fortifications tell you specifically to treat it like impassable terrain once destoryed. Until destroyed, you must follow the rules for "embarking" or entering a fortification as provided on its datasheet. If you place a model on top of a fortification, it is effectively "embarked" on the said fortification with transport capacity.

Effectively, if one argues that you can stand on top of a fortification without necessarilly "embarking" in it, then there's nothing that prevents anyone from placing a dreadnought on top of a rhino and having it move along with the rhino - which we all know is not allowed.

Fortification is a specific type of unit. Therefore it follows all the rules pertaining to a unit.

I realy want someone to make a diarama of a leviathan dread shooting out the top hatch of a rhino now.

Or a Gorkanaut piggybacking on a Grot.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Fortification =/= scenery/terrain/etc.

Not sure all fortifications have it, but certain fortifications tell you specifically to treat it like impassable terrain once destoryed. Until destroyed, you must follow the rules for "embarking" or entering a fortification as provided on its datasheet. If you place a model on top of a fortification, it is effectively "embarked" on the said fortification with transport capacity.

Effectively, if one argues that you can stand on top of a fortification without necessarilly "embarking" in it, then there's nothing that prevents anyone from placing a dreadnought on top of a rhino and having it move along with the rhino - which we all know is not allowed.

Fortification is a specific type of unit. Therefore it follows all the rules pertaining to a unit.

I realy want someone to make a diarama of a leviathan dread shooting out the top hatch of a rhino now.

Or a Gorkanaut piggybacking on a Grot.

With the grot riding a unicycle?