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Played a list which roughly contained the following.
2000 points
Over 2 battalions:

6 warriors for troops with various amounts of blasters and shredders. Half had an extra 6 inch range, the other half had the black heart

3 ravagers with triple dark lance being followed around by a reroll 1 to hit reroll 1 to wound archon using a relic.
3 Venoms double s cannon.
3 raiders

All 9 had 6+ FNP from black heart and a 5++

Airwing with 3 jetfighters, 2 with desis and one with lances

3 archons and drazhar for 4 HQs


What would be your strategy to beat this list? There's a -1 to hit the venoms and jetfighters and he can use a strat to make one ravager or raider a -1 to hit. There's so much anti monster/armour spread out over his entire army, and he can all his guns in range turn 1 and cop no penalty for moving and shooting because they're all assault weapons. You can't get to his blasters easily because they're inside venoms/raiders which are all open topped. And if you destroy them then they just jump about, he might lose a warrior or 2 but not the ones with special weapons. Then they shoot you with their blasters/shredders the next turn.

If you try an assault based army they can move out of combat quite easily, and a huge distance with all their flying transports, while having a lot of anti infantry/hoard guns. If you try and kill their vehicles with your vehicles they end up out shooting you and being more survivable with a 5++ and 6+ FNP. Their vehicles can move far, over terrain and not cop the -1 for move and shooting so they can always out position you in terms of terrain. A russ can only move less than 5 to get double shots and it still cops -1 on anything but it's turret weapon for example.

What armies, what lists would you suggest could compete with an army based around this list, or this list itself?

I collect scions and guard myself so if anyone had a way to make a list with those armies that could compete that would be great

Thanks

Hi, I play drukhari myself and the list you posted is certainly a ggod one but far from being overpowered. It completely lacks melee and doesn't have many anti infantry tools. 3 HQs out of 4 are nothing more than a tax. Bring an horde list or a very effective gunline to counter it. Drukhari can be outshot by more than a faction. And can't really handle things like 180+ orks.

I don't play guard but competitive AM gunlines have superior shooting than the drukhari list you posted.

 Blackie wrote:
Hi, I play drukhari myself and the list you posted is certainly a ggod one but far from being overpowered. It completely lacks melee and doesn't have many anti infantry tools. 3 HQs out of 4 are nothing more than a tax. Bring an horde list or a very effective gunline to counter it. Drukhari can be outshot by more than a faction. And can't really handle things like 180+ orks.

I don't play guard but competitive AM gunlines have superior shooting than the drukhari list you posted.

Can you post an example of a good AM gunline you would struggle with?

I think if the DE player goes first they have a high chance of winning. Much less if they go second.

I agree that mass infantry is the way to go. Orks would have a reasonable shot (although if the DE player goes first I think they could put a lot of pressure on objectives depending on scenario). Lots of Tau S5 shooting also shreds the vehicles even with -1 to hit.

A primaris DA gunline with Azrael will easily beat that list.

SM can make great use of stock predators here, autocannon only. Comes cheap and has the perfect profile to take down those DE vehicles.

For guards? 3 Hydras come cheap and kill a lot of stuff with DE profiles.

Also, 6+++ on vehicles? Is that a relic of some kind? Vehicles don't have power from pain.

Spoletta wrote:
Also, 6+++ on vehicles? Is that a relic of some kind? Vehicles don't have power from pain.

Black Heart gives vehicles a 6+++.

This is a solid list for killing things, but against any kind of horde they would never be able to hold onto objectives and would likely fold.

The whole list can probably remove around 10 GEQ a turn, and most of the time against any kind of horde you'll be facing about a hundred such bodies. Venoms and Raiders fold into paper dolls in the Fight Phase (their -1 to hit and invuln is shooting only, same with the invuln on raiders/ravagers) a deep striking da jump mob can easily hack all three venoms which will probably be in front to ribbons and take out 50% of the list's anti infantry capabilities in a single turn.

Anything in the str 6-7 high number of shots range will hurt that list. Autocannons, assault cannons, and heavy bolters on the cheap, will really make it hurt. Target priority is key, those ravagers are nasty but only one can get -1 to hit, so make him pop it then ignore what it's on and destroy something else. Your playing what force? Sounds like astra militarum, go full gunline on then with heavy weapon autocannon teams or missile launchers. Take super cheap vehicles like sentinals, no russes. He is taking 9+ dark lances against you, your tanks won't live. Take ratings and have all of them focus on that single archon boosting the ravagers. They won't kill him but they may scare your opponent enough that he plays the archons defensivly. Take drop scions with plasma, still a good choice, hold them until turn 2-3 and then drop them when something juicy has been left open. Jetbikes don't get an invulnerable save.

You can do it bud.

The best guard list to fight against a Kabal list is one that emphasizes bodies over all else. As I was saying, his anti-infantry firepower is incredibly weak, but his anti-tank abilities are top notch. I would not advise HWTs other than mortars (because dissie cannons exist, but mortars can hide out of LOS) but every single gosh-dang squad (and you should be fielding all the infantry you have) should have a heavy bolter or autocannon, and a grenade launcher.

Weapons that are medium strength, -1 AP, and multi-damage tear up dark eldar like nobody's business. Hydras, punisher cannons, grenade launchers and autocannons are terrifying to the dark kin. A hydra chunks a reliable 4 damage off any -1 to hit Dark Eldar unit, and heck, a squad of FRFSRF lasguns chunks 2.5 wounds off their vehicles. S3 Ap- is highly efficient against them.

Scions are quite a bit less effective than they normally would be, because -1 to hit hurts plasma bad, but if they drop in cover, they'll have a very good chance of surviving the turn because 3+ saves in cover are tough for dark eldar to crack, especially with Take Cover.

Smites are another thing Dark Eldar strongly dislike. They have no psychic defenses, their vehicles have low wounds, and they rely on -1 to hit and invulns to survive, as you know. 3 Astropaths would be a very strong use of a very small number of points.

Can I ask what units you're typically deploying? Your best vehicles would be Basilisks (hiding out of LOS), Leman Russ battlecannon tanks with heavy bolters, infantry squads with AC's/GLs/HBs with commanders, Primaris Psykers(slash astropath casting Maelstrom), cheaper scion squads, such as with Grenade Launchers or Volley Guns, and just bodies bodies bodies, as many as you can put on the field.

As a guard gunline vs another gunline, you've just got to win the slow grinding war of attrition. you'll lose your tanks for sure, but if you take down their troops they simply wont be able to kill your men and you'll win easily on objeftives.

Remember, it's a stratagem that gives - 1 to hit, he pops it on the reavers and you have free shots at the ravagers. He pops it on the ravagers then it's time to kill those bikes. It's a great stratagem but not the end all be all. It's only able to protect one thing a turn, and even then - 1 can be overcome. Hellhounds don't care about - 1 to hit lol.

But yeah, every team needs a heavy weapon, autocannon or hb works perfect.

Well I only played 1 game against him. I love scions and own over 100 of them so it's a pain for me to only bring a couple squads of them.

The list I brought had 3 valks. 2 had scions troops with 4 melta one had 3 scion command squads flamers (12 flamers) Also had 2 primes, yarrick and an officer of the fleet inside.

At the back I had pask with multimeltas, lascannons and a battle cannon surrounded by 30 guardsmen, 2 astropaths, techpriest and a cadian commander with the relic of cadia.

First turn pask should have blown a jet out of the air but he rolled way too well on his 5++ and I did about 4 wounds. All valks went into hover and dropped of their units. He rolled well on his 5++ 6+++ and I managed to destroy only one jet with the flamers and one raider. The venoms and ravagers didn't get hurt. If I tried going after the ravagers with the scions inside the valks I would have had to go over 20" and risked the guys dying inside on 1s, which in hindsight would have been the better choice. No point in wasting melta on raiders. In his turn he messed up all the scions and moved towards pask and the regular guard with everything he had left. I didn't manage to get -1 to hit +1 to saves psychic on pask and his ravagers took him out.

I think that the valks and scions took up too many points against this DE list and the suggestions you guys have said make a lot of sense. If I still want to stay committed to scions should I ditch the valks? Run 3 troops squads with plasma and 1 command squad with 2 primes. Get them all to deepstrike turn 2 or 3 and put the rest of my points into mass guard infantry, heavy bolter teams and autocannons?

The only other issue is I need a a tournament list that can beat this list but isn't tailored to just beat this list, I might not even come up against DE in this small tourney I'm playing in a few weeks.

Cheers for the tips guys!

I am not sure on the valks, I have little experience with then, but drop pask for sure. For 207 pts you can get 4 squads of guardsmen with an autocannon in each one. Pask can be killed from a single ravager that rolls well (I have seen it happen, hell I have killed a baneblade and a predator with 3 ravagers in a single turn, all you need is to roll hot on one ravager and suddenly the stuff starts blowing up).

Look at it like this.

For 750 (750!!!!) Points you can take

Hq - 2 Primaris Psychers, 1 Company Commander
Elites - 3 platoon commander
Troops - 4 guardsmen squads each with an autocannon, 2 guardsmen squads each with a heavy bolter
Fast Attack - 3 scout sentinals each with missile launchers
Heavy Support - 3 heavy weapon squads, each with 3 mortars.

That's a full brigade for 12 command points. That alone should be enough to deal with dark eldar. Then spend the rest of the points on what ever you want that would make you feel good. Valkeries with scions dropping in, maybe a tank or 2 if you want, whatever you want to put pressure on your enemy. But when I played guard that's what I started with every time, full infantry, no bs, and it makes one hell of a gun line.

Gl, hope that helps some.

That's a genius idea actually and it makes perfect sense. I always went pask for the 2+ BS but taking a whole heap of guns that hit on 4+ rerolling with the cadian trait is much more effective on so many levels. Cheers mate!

You know, the more I look at this the more I think you don't actually need to give up your tempestus theme at all to beat dark eldar. Tempestus have the tools to deal with DE especially with the models you indicated you own.

-Flamer tempestus. Sometimes discounted because they pay for a lot of stats they don't use with no to-hit rolls and no use of deep strike, but if you have them, they're good at horde clearing and great against dark eldar. 5x scions with 2x flamers, command squad 4x flamers, prime with command rod in a valk. Roll the valk forward 20", pop the scions, walk the scions forward, use Elimination Protocols on each squad and unload into a venom or raider. That on average kills a venom, takes 7.4 wounds off a Raider chassis.

-Taurox Primes. Holy crap taurox primes are incredible against dark eldar. TP gatling cannon+double autocannon build tears it up against any light vehicle.

As an example of a still tempestus-heavy TAC list that would be great against DE and also an extremely tough list to crack for any opponent:

Battalion Tempestus

3xPrime w/chainsword+Command Stick

2x5 scions with 2 flamers
2x10 scions with 2 plasma
1x9 scions with 2 plasma

3x Taurox Prime with autocannon+Gatling

2x Valk with multiple rockets+Lascannon

2x Scion command 4x flamer
Officer of the Fleet

Cadian Battalion

2x company commander

4x infantry squad with 1 lascannon each

3x Scout Sentinels with autocannons (Scout out 9" to form a screen against turn 1 chargers. Between them and the two valk bases, it's going to be very hard for you to be melee alpha struck)

3x3 Mortar team HWTs

This is a tough list for any opponent to deal with, especially dark eldar. You both are the horde meta and you counter the horde meta, you have answers to turn 1 assault, especially if they don't have fly like zerkers/nids, and you don't give up your scion theme still having 60 scion models on the board.

the_scotsman wrote:
You know, the more I look at this the more I think you don't actually need to give up your tempestus theme at all to beat dark eldar. Tempestus have the tools to deal with DE especially with the models you indicated you own.

-Flamer tempestus. Sometimes discounted because they pay for a lot of stats they don't use with no to-hit rolls and no use of deep strike, but if you have them, they're good at horde clearing and great against dark eldar. 5x scions with 2x flamers, command squad 4x flamers, prime with command rod in a valk. Roll the valk forward 20", pop the scions, walk the scions forward, use Elimination Protocols on each squad and unload into a venom or raider. That on average kills a venom, takes 7.4 wounds off a Raider chassis.

-Taurox Primes. Holy crap taurox primes are incredible against dark eldar. TP gatling cannon+double autocannon build tears it up against any light vehicle.

As an example of a still tempestus-heavy TAC list that would be great against DE and also an extremely tough list to crack for any opponent:

Battalion Tempestus

3xPrime w/chainsword+Command Stick

2x5 scions with 2 flamers
2x10 scions with 2 plasma
1x9 scions with 2 plasma

3x Taurox Prime with autocannon+Gatling

2x Valk with multiple rockets+Lascannon

2x Scion command 4x flamer
Officer of the Fleet

Cadian Battalion

2x company commander

4x infantry squad with 1 lascannon each

3x Scout Sentinels with autocannons (Scout out 9" to form a screen against turn 1 chargers. Between them and the two valk bases, it's going to be very hard for you to be melee alpha struck)

3x3 Mortar team HWTs

This is a tough list for any opponent to deal with, especially dark eldar. You both are the horde meta and you counter the horde meta, you have answers to turn 1 assault, especially if they don't have fly like zerkers/nids, and you don't give up your scion theme still having 60 scion models on the board.

That's actually such a good list on so many levels. I never thought about taking 10 man scion squads with only 2 special weapons. Means they're not throwing points away if they get shot up and they're not as big a target. The list lets you split up your opponents forces too with the scions landing around midtable, opponent deployment zone so it preserves the cadian side of things pretty well. There's enough anti-infantry and anti vehicle around. Maybe not enough dedicated anti heavy vehicle but I think all the fire power together could take down a Knight or Baneblade.

Thanks for the list I've got the models for it, going to try it out next game!