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2018/05/01 17:40:05
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
So first off I play marines, how do I deal with Tau fusion spam?
I have to play Raven Guard, the other chapter tactics just cant compete when you have the amount of shots Tau dish out. So far using this Tactic has been the only way we've gone past turn 2, unless he goes first.
So this is what happens every game, my friend takes a Coldstar commander loads it up with 4 fusion guns and rams it down my throat with its 40" move. Then on top of that he generally takes 2 Ghostkeels loaded up with fusion too. Then this game he graced me with taking 2 riptides with HBC's. Oh there was also another commander with 2 more fusion guns. I understand why Commanders are limited to 1 per detachment. (Side note: It really irks me when he tries to compare a captain with a combi-melta to a commander with 4 fusion.)
I know he takes a commander with 4 fusion blasters, so I gotta plan for that every game. For instance I held off from dropping my Inceptors in because they couldn't really drop in anywhere for a decent target, I had first turn and tried ramming my Stormhawk to take down that commander but with 13 CP he didn't care spending a few to give my jet -1 to hit. So he lived then on his first turn proceeded to blow up my jet then sit till my Inceptors dropped, then killed them with one turn of shooting.
I was able to take out one of the riptides using 5 VV with hammers and shields, a captain with a hammer and a lieutenant with a hammer. But just. And yes I used Strike from the Shadows to get them up close.
I took terminators ironically, ironically they survived till round 5(mainly because the riptide didn't shoot at it till round 5) actually surviving 2 fusion shots with their invulns(I should've took a photo). But not a lot can stand up to 18 S6 ap -2 2D shots. But after getting into melee with a ghostkeel they took off 3 whole wounds. Worth it!
I think the FLY keyword is a little too powerful and there's basically no penalty for falling back, but that's a whole other thread.
So I've been struggling to make a list this entire edition mainly crippling myself until I decided I can't take tactical marines anymore. Which helps more than I wish it actually did because I'm one of those players that loves the idea of using Tacticals for my main force but its highly unrealistic so far. I had a short lived stent where I replaced tacticals with Intercessors, which helped. Riptide made that list irrelevant. Scouts I've decided are the best troop choice we have a little slower than others but I got there.
So I have a Ad-Mech army too, but I find myself compelled to play my marines so I can get a win out of them, but I think this game is gonna be the last game I play marines simply because I can play Ad-Mech and have the bodies and the guns. But I'll have a lot of painting on my hands so I've been kinda holding off because Skitarii are a bit of a pain to paint but really look great in the end.
So just as a bonus question is anyone else dealing with Fusion spam from Tau/ are you spamming out fusion as a Tau player?
2018/05/01 18:10:16
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Alot 400 points to take 3 hydras and a commisar. Watch as he cries getting shot at with 24 S7 Ap-1 2 damage hitting on 3+ guwrd tanks on ANYTHING that has fly
To many unpainted models to count.
2018/05/01 18:17:23
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
If you're playing Imperium and you don't have at least a battalion of Imperial Guard, you're doing it wrong.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/05/01 18:54:22
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Not a Space Marine player (Chaos yet, Loyalist no), but when they go high, you go low. Fusions help kill anything dead, so make it so their only options are things that are killed dead by anything, making the Fusion Guns really not worthwhile. Tons of Scouts and Tacticals, with 3+ saves for days, will weather a storm of Pulse Fire pretty well, and die on the cheap, making shooting them with Fusion Guns a not very worth-while proposition.
If you have access to a bunch of Guardsmen to run screens for you, that really helps too, but Scouts & Tacticals are a pretty loyalist way to go. Some Devastators safely in the back, maybe some Primaris Marine Helblasters also safely at the back that will melt the face of any Coldstar that flies deep into your territory to help.
Galef wrote: If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
2018/05/01 19:42:29
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Marmatag wrote:If you're playing Imperium and you don't have at least a battalion of Imperial Guard, you're doing it wrong.
Backspacehacker wrote:Alot 400 points to take 3 hydras and a commisar. Watch as he cries getting shot at with 24 S7 Ap-1 2 damage hitting on 3+ guwrd tanks on ANYTHING that has fly
Yeah I've already been mapping out my purchases for guard but I'm a little torn now that SoB are coming out next year and I probably have enough between Ad-mech, marines and terrain. I'm unable to take the guard battalion because I have none lol
I think I'd rather hop on the manticore bus because we play with a fair amount of large buildings so line of sight could be an issue, which it seems like that would solve most of the problems for people on here but that another thread.
2018/05/01 19:46:41
Subject: Re:Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Sounds like a minus to hit problem rather than a general SM vs Tau problem.
What are you letting his coldstar hit? With no more deepstrike on turn 1 you need to pattern your units around the targets he wants to hit.
Coldstar bases are 2.3 inches. They need to be more than an inch from enemy models. That means a 4.3 inch gap bewteen models keeps him from sneaking in.
What's your full list?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 19:59:00
2018/05/01 19:58:07
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Or just make sure that you have no target that is worth a commander, those guys are not cheap and they don't survive the first impact.
Also, HBCs are not that strong, they take out 4 MEQ out of cover or 3 in cover, while exposing the riptide to serious return fire (only one riptide can have both 3++ and offensive boost, the second one will take heavy damage).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/01 20:01:32
2018/05/01 20:25:18
Subject: Re:Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
As playing both Tau and Marines I'm going to say you got of lightly.
I'm really not surprised you lost with that list, be brought a pretty solid but not quite tournament tau list and your bringing substandard marine units.
Marines don't make a good battalion
Terminators are over costed at best to uplayable.
Landspeeders serve no purpose in 8th
A venerable dread is hands down better than a standard dread, I don't field standaed dreads
You need 2 or 3 storm shields in VV not 5 thats too many points per model with no chumps.
Whirlwinds have uses but look hidiously overpriced compaired to a wyvern.
Your list needs a lot of work as playing vanilla marines right now is playing with your hands tied behind your back.
2018/05/01 21:49:40
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Ice_can wrote: As playing both Tau and Marines I'm going to say you got of lightly.
I'm really not surprised you lost with that list, be brought a pretty solid but not quite tournament tau list and your bringing substandard marine units.
Marines don't make a good battalion
Terminators are over costed at best to uplayable.
Landspeeders serve no purpose in 8th
A venerable dread is hands down better than a standard dread, I don't field standaed dreads
You need 2 or 3 storm shields in VV not 5 thats too many points per model with no chumps.
Whirlwinds have uses but look hidiously overpriced compaired to a wyvern.
Your list needs a lot of work as playing vanilla marines right now is playing with your hands tied behind your back.
Okay even still that's stuff coming out but you're not suggesting I add anything.
I got 2 riptides in the back behind Los block terrain to deal with
2018/05/01 22:07:07
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
I would almost keep the icarus on it instead of the lastalon. Fly it up and use the skyhammer and stormcannon on GK stealth drones. Put the asscans on firewarriors or drones. Then the dev and vendread LC should be enough to bring it down. Put frag missiles into something soft for now.
I might drop regular dread. Get a squad of 10 SG with just bolters. Get them in RF range of a GK and use the strat - 20 * .5 * .5 * .666 = 3.3. Their bodies will also help keep him away from your more valuable assets.
Make one of the Dev squads Heavy Bolters. Use the stratagem on Riptides after you hopefully knock off drones.
Obviously the Primaris are not a great idea in big number, because of the HBCs. What does he have guarding his riptides? Tons of Fire Warriors?
I assume the VV are jump? If so you have too many points on heavy melee without a good way to make them stick against fliers. Take two hammers on the VV instead of 5. Give the rest grav pistols. Swinging TH at something with -1 to hit is going to give you a cramp.
I'd also unfortunately drop the termies, too. Not sure what i'd replace them with at the moment.
2018/05/01 22:44:37
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Ice_can wrote: As playing both Tau and Marines I'm going to say you got of lightly.
I'm really not surprised you lost with that list, be brought a pretty solid but not quite tournament tau list and your bringing substandard marine units.
Marines don't make a good battalion
Terminators are over costed at best to uplayable.
Landspeeders serve no purpose in 8th
A venerable dread is hands down better than a standard dread, I don't field standaed dreads
You need 2 or 3 storm shields in VV not 5 thats too many points per model with no chumps.
Whirlwinds have uses but look hidiously overpriced compaired to a wyvern.
Your list needs a lot of work as playing vanilla marines right now is playing with your hands tied behind your back.
Okay even still that's stuff coming out but you're not suggesting I add anything.
I got 2 riptides in the back behind Los block terrain to deal with
My suggestion is that you you need to scrap you list and start over from scratch.
Scouts are good.
LT's can't have an invulnerable and need multiple screening units ok for gunline rather meh in assualt no stormsheild keeps them backline only.
Shrike is actually pretty good against anything but T8.
VV vets right idea but they need to be leaner on points double chainswords for chaff (if you must)or Thunderhammers stormshields seperate models.
Venerable dreads or contemptors invulnerable saves make a difference.
Sprinkle in missle launcher and HB for strategum use combined with cherub for double bonus.
Forgeworld dreads
2018/05/02 01:53:56
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
Yarium wrote: Not a Space Marine player (Chaos yet, Loyalist no), but when they go high, you go low. Fusions help kill anything dead, so make it so their only options are things that are killed dead by anything, making the Fusion Guns really not worthwhile. Tons of Scouts and Tacticals, with 3+ saves for days, will weather a storm of Pulse Fire pretty well, and die on the cheap, making shooting them with Fusion Guns a not very worth-while proposition.
If you have access to a bunch of Guardsmen to run screens for you, that really helps too, but Scouts & Tacticals are a pretty loyalist way to go. Some Devastators safely in the back, maybe some Primaris Marine Helblasters also safely at the back that will melt the face of any Coldstar that flies deep into your territory to help.
Yup. Camo cloaks, sniper rifles, layers and layers of scouts, pockets of tacticals.
Maybe add a couple cheap speeders to chase down the wounded and jump out in front of nasty stuff...
You need more troops, fewer elites.
Save a LOT of points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/02 01:58:41
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2018/05/02 02:56:18
Subject: Re:Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
So taking advice from the two of you this is what I got now.
Cpt. = Thunder hammer, MC boltgun, JP Lieutenants = MC boltgun, chainsword. MC Boltgun, chainsword, maybe JP so I don't have to buy another transport but I got points to spare now. Thinking I would drop him by the sternguard to help seeing as how they'd be wounding on 4s against a ghostkeel with the stratagem. the second one with most likely hover around one of the Ven dreads
2 bare scout squads
2 scout squads with storm bolters
10 man Sternguard
Ven dread = AC, CCW stormbolter
Ven dread = Twin LC, missle launcher
Vanguard = 2 chainsword SS, chainsword grav pistol, thunderhammer grav pistol, and thunderhammer grav pistol on the Sgt.
I have 10 vanguard models so I can take more with the freed up points. I also am curious about the reasoning for grav pistols instead of plasma pistols given the targets, riptides and ghostkeels. The Cpt is going to be in the area so I'd be wounding on 3s instead of 5s and a flat 2 damage
Inceptor squad = plasma
Devs = 2 heavy bolters, cherub
Devs = a little divided between either 2 LC or 2 missle launchers for the Stratagem, but I might keep them and put a missile launcher in a scout squad or 2. cherub
Backspacehacker wrote: Alot 400 points to take 3 hydras and a commisar. Watch as he cries getting shot at with 24 S7 Ap-1 2 damage hitting on 3+ guwrd tanks on ANYTHING that has fly
can hydra ignore character status? If not he won't be shooting those fusion commanders until it's too late.
btw suggestion what to add: IG. Get cheap battallion giving plenty CP's and tons of cheap bodies. Will ease up making sure cold stars and commanders won't be finding landing spot where you don't want them to go.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 06:55:36
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/05/02 11:25:42
Subject: Re:Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
So taking advice from the two of you this is what I got now.
Cpt. = Thunder hammer, MC boltgun, JP Lieutenants = MC boltgun, chainsword. MC Boltgun, chainsword, maybe JP so I don't have to buy another transport but I got points to spare now. Thinking I would drop him by the sternguard to help seeing as how they'd be wounding on 4s against a ghostkeel with the stratagem. the second one with most likely hover around one of the Ven dreads
2 bare scout squads
2 scout squads with storm bolters
10 man Sternguard
Ven dread = AC, CCW stormbolter
Ven dread = Twin LC, missle launcher
Vanguard = 2 chainsword SS, chainsword grav pistol, thunderhammer grav pistol, and thunderhammer grav pistol on the Sgt.
I have 10 vanguard models so I can take more with the freed up points. I also am curious about the reasoning for grav pistols instead of plasma pistols given the targets, riptides and ghostkeels. The Cpt is going to be in the area so I'd be wounding on 3s instead of 5s and a flat 2 damage
Inceptor squad = plasma
Devs = 2 heavy bolters, cherub
Devs = a little divided between either 2 LC or 2 missle launchers for the Stratagem, but I might keep them and put a missile launcher in a scout squad or 2. cherub
Rhino for the sternguard probably gonna give it a second storm bolter
Only 1769.
I was thinking hellblasters, but HBC. Maybe a razorback with AC or las-plas
ML are very likely the better choice. He doesn't have any T8. You do lose a bit of AP, but you can totally punish him for being a jerk with flyers. Otherwise you can do one ML w/ cherub and then an LC.
Plasma pistols are cool as long as you plan on the captain being there.
Squeeze in a predator with AC/LC. If you can fit a rhino, too that would be perfect for keeping the SG safe turn 1. I still don't think the CCW dread offers much in this list.
2018/05/02 13:52:39
Subject: Semi rant/How do I deal with Fusion Spam?
The way i deal with it with marines is to take 0 armor. All your armor sucks anyways. The only tank I consider is a repulsor and only because it gives hellblasters a little boost. Fussion commanders are extremely overrated anyways. CIB is much more effective vs everything - just be glad he isn't spamming those.
Basically - marines don't stand a chance in hell against tau. The best you can do is try to make the game interesting.
Your best chance is to take a lot of scout bikes. Like 3 full 10 mans and 3 storm ravens - and bum rush him and kill all his firewarriors turn 1. He has to kill the scout bikes or they tie up his whole army so your storm ravens are free to rain death.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
