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Hi!

With the news that we can mix primaris together into kill teams I've started thinking of different compositions and builds for them. What we know so far:

5 Intercessor base squad

Reiver grants his -1 leadership aura
Aggressor grants advance and fire at no penalty for assault and no penalty for moving with heavy weapons
Inceptor grants fallback and shoot as if you had the fly keyword.
Hellblaster is just happy to be there.


So far I've been doing some theory crafting on assault weapon squads and some thoughts on more traditional rapid fire ones


Assault squad idea I have
220 points
5 intercessors (assault bolters)
1 reiver (assault bolter)
1 Aggressor
2 Hellblasters (assault plasma)

This gives you a unit that is very mobile (for infantry) moving an average of 9 - 10 inches and still being able to fire at full volume. Their ability to move so fast could be huge for taking up superior positions and leaping from cover to cover. Great for getting into position and will outshoot a rapid fire type unit at a lot of ranges due to their assault range being 24-30 special ammo dependent. The main drawback I feel is that you are limited in ap on your bolters and you lose the huge difference from s7 to 8 on your hellblasters.

Rapid fire type squad idea I have
207
5 Intercessors (bolt rifle)
1 reiver (assault bolter)
3 Hellblasters (rapid fire plasma)

This one is a bit cheaper while offering superior firepower, but does suffer from not getting 2 shots like the assault weapons do at all their ranges. Funnily enough this squad performs best at the closer ranges of 15 inches than the assault, but lacks the mobility of the assault squad. However if they do get in that 15 inch range they easily out perform their assault based companions and even outside of 15 their superior ap and hellblaster make them competitive firepower wise for sure.

I think reivers seem like a great pick for any kill team. Their minus to leadership might matter once every blue moon and their blind grenade could occassionaly be a big deal.
Aggressors will be required for more mobile squad designs.
Hellblasters will always have a home if you want the squad to be a threat to literally everything, but will require some form of nearby re-rolls if you overcharge.

Inceptors I do feel a bit bad for because a lot of what is baked into their point cost is not really useful in a kill team. Their extra mobility and fly keyword are almost pointless as is their toughness 5 and deepstrike access. They really feel gutted point efficiency wise. Their firepower is also really lacking compared to just getting two and a half more intercessors or a hellblaster and half a intercessor. Their fallback and shoot is really good, but it comes at such a hige price point that I'd rather just fire special ammo bolt pistols into combat with the extra models I got.

I've seen some talk about stalker interecessors with an agressor, but personally I hate that idea. Primaris are too expensive to sit back and deal out piddily amounts of wounds (for their points) and the aggressor baby sitting them would be entirely wasted due to his limited range. I feel like to get your points worth of primaris you need to play aggresively with them and use their beefy profiles.

Any thoughts thus far on how you plan to run your killteams?

I can't wait to start designing some PKTs - I like the look of yours. I see one Reiver and one Inceptor as somewhat mandatory.

It's interesting that unlike the Vets, every model in these units seems pretty happy at about an 18" range. The question/challenge will be how to get them there and how badly GW overprices them.

My gut feeling is they will be competitively pointed based upon the last codices to release.

To be honest, the Inceptors solve every problem I've had with Hellblasters: them getting locked into combat early on which keeps them from shooting for a valuable turn. With just one Inceptor and one Aggressor, I can turn those Hellblasters into some serious firepower that can't be denied, even if they fall back. I'm guaranteed to fire every turn, which means my opponent has to devote a lot more firepower to wiping the squad, which suits me just fine.

If I played Deathwatch, I'd never have any Hellblasters without at least one Inceptor as that assault defense.

DWKTs are going to shred right through chaff horde. Goodbye, gants, cultists, gants kroot, etc.

Also remember that Inceptors have TWO of each weapon they carry. That means 6 heavy bolter shots or 2d3 plasma shots. They add some serious punch at that sweet spot of 18" range that the Primaris force seems to excel in.

We'll see if these squads can be taken in a Corvus Blackstar, deepstruck or scout deployed using stratagems or something. That'll really be the big determination of whether they're useful or not. Otherwise, people will ignore them in favor of other options, as they have in the main Space Marine codex. :/

Really, if the only way to transport Primaris is through a Repulsor, and if taking things like Inceptors or Aggressors prevents them from riding in those Repulsors, then the Deathwatch Codex will be dead on arrival.

drbored wrote:
To be honest, the Inceptors solve every problem I've had with Hellblasters: them getting locked into combat early on which keeps them from shooting for a valuable turn. With just one Inceptor and one Aggressor, I can turn those Hellblasters into some serious firepower that can't be denied, even if they fall back. I'm guaranteed to fire every turn, which means my opponent has to devote a lot more firepower to wiping the squad, which suits me just fine.

If I played Deathwatch, I'd never have any Hellblasters without at least one Inceptor as that assault defense.

I don't think you will be able to mix 1 Inceptor into a squad of Hellblasters. The mixing would only be for the Fortis Kill Team which means you need 5 Intercessors minimum

I honestly feel like helblasters are the odd man out here, they are a squad that functions better with more plasma shots, 5 inntercessors don’t add much nor do rievers. I feel like assault Bolter intercessors+ 3-4 aggressors + 1 inceptor. All these models are better off shooting so more firepower and staying mobile is big, and the ability to fall back and shoot is huge. It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

Breng77 wrote:
I honestly feel like helblasters are the odd man out here, they are a squad that functions better with more plasma shots, 5 inntercessors don’t add much nor do rievers. I feel like assault Bolter intercessors+ 3-4 aggressors + 1 inceptor. All these models are better off shooting so more firepower and staying mobile is big, and the ability to fall back and shoot is huge. It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

I gotta disagree with intercesors or reivers not adding much. With special issue ammo they are a real threat to anything that is not a vehicle.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I honestly feel like helblasters are the odd man out here, they are a squad that functions better with more plasma shots, 5 inntercessors don’t add much nor do rievers. I feel like assault Bolter intercessors+ 3-4 aggressors + 1 inceptor. All these models are better off shooting so more firepower and staying mobile is big, and the ability to fall back and shoot is huge. It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

I gotta disagree with intercesors or reivers not adding much. With special issue ammo they are a real threat to anything that is not a vehicle.

And then they are a threat to vehicles low on health. As long as the SI tax isn't heavy they're gonna be pretty cool.

As awesome as primaris teams are, I think having a captain with that switch targets relic is going to be insane for escorting frag cannon teams. They will melt anything they point at with wound rerolls.

StarHunter25 wrote:
As awesome as primaris teams are, I think having a captain with that switch targets relic is going to be insane for escorting frag cannon teams. They will melt anything they point at with wound rerolls.

They'll be terribly expensive though per wound, do remember that.

 osmesis wrote:

drbored wrote:
To be honest, the Inceptors solve every problem I've had with Hellblasters: them getting locked into combat early on which keeps them from shooting for a valuable turn. With just one Inceptor and one Aggressor, I can turn those Hellblasters into some serious firepower that can't be denied, even if they fall back. I'm guaranteed to fire every turn, which means my opponent has to devote a lot more firepower to wiping the squad, which suits me just fine.

If I played Deathwatch, I'd never have any Hellblasters without at least one Inceptor as that assault defense.

I don't think you will be able to mix 1 Inceptor into a squad of Hellblasters. The mixing would only be for the Fortis Kill Team which means you need 5 Intercessors minimum

That's fine, I'll do that, load up as many Hellblasters as I can, and then stick one Inceptor in there. The Intercessors can either shoot at other targets, or use their special issue ammunition to add fuel to the fire. It's not much of a tax when you get ablative wounds and the ability to retreat and shoot.

And yeah, Deathwatch's problem has always been a problem of price. They're too expensive right now. If they become too cheap, however, they'll be overpowered, especially with all the new fun of re-rolling wound rolls and such without needing to pay for a lieutenant tax.

drbored wrote:

 osmesis wrote:

drbored wrote:
To be honest, the Inceptors solve every problem I've had with Hellblasters: them getting locked into combat early on which keeps them from shooting for a valuable turn. With just one Inceptor and one Aggressor, I can turn those Hellblasters into some serious firepower that can't be denied, even if they fall back. I'm guaranteed to fire every turn, which means my opponent has to devote a lot more firepower to wiping the squad, which suits me just fine.

If I played Deathwatch, I'd never have any Hellblasters without at least one Inceptor as that assault defense.

I don't think you will be able to mix 1 Inceptor into a squad of Hellblasters. The mixing would only be for the Fortis Kill Team which means you need 5 Intercessors minimum

That's fine, I'll do that, load up as many Hellblasters as I can, and then stick one Inceptor in there. The Intercessors can either shoot at other targets, or use their special issue ammunition to add fuel to the fire. It's not much of a tax when you get ablative wounds and the ability to retreat and shoot.

And yeah, Deathwatch's problem has always been a problem of price. They're too expensive right now. If they become too cheap, however, they'll be overpowered, especially with all the new fun of re-rolling wound rolls and such without needing to pay for a lieutenant tax.

It's against a certain type of target. The rerolling 1's to wound isn't close to broken.

As a start I'm thinking an assault version with 5 intercessors with auto bolt rifles, aggressor, inceptor with bolters and possibly a reiver or 2. Use Vengeance rounds for the Intercessors and Reivers to have Ap-2 at 18" range and extra mobility with advance movement. All weapons in sqd now at 18" range which works well.....if they can get there (hoping for a deepstrike strategem).

Second team of 5 Intercessors with stalker bolt rifles firing Hellfire (wound on 2+ AP-2) and 2-3 hellblasters with hvy plasma incinerators (if I can add that many). This is a firebase sqd.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I honestly feel like helblasters are the odd man out here, they are a squad that functions better with more plasma shots, 5 inntercessors don’t add much nor do rievers. I feel like assault Bolter intercessors+ 3-4 aggressors + 1 inceptor. All these models are better off shooting so more firepower and staying mobile is big, and the ability to fall back and shoot is huge. It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

I gotta disagree with intercesors or reivers not adding much. With special issue ammo they are a real threat to anything that is not a vehicle.

Which helblasters already are so what are the other models adding? Cheap bodies? It is not that those choices are bad per say it is that they bring nothing (other than cheap bodies to die first) to a helblasters squad. If given the option of 5 helblasters with 5 special issue inceptors, or 7-8 Helblasters I’d rather have the extra helblasters for essentially they same cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m assuming there is a max squad size of 10 and for things like stratagems it matters when things have more models. This also assumes that points are unchanged for both models. If intercessors go up for SI ammo then it is even more likely that I’ll want to run just more helblasters in another squad.

Breng77 wrote:
It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

Already a thing and long story short, you get screwed by the Intercessors. If you have mixed toughness in a unit you use the majority toughness. With 5 Intercessors mandaotry its pretty hard to benefit from the additional toughness of the specialists.

Breng77 wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
I honestly feel like helblasters are the odd man out here, they are a squad that functions better with more plasma shots, 5 inntercessors don’t add much nor do rievers. I feel like assault Bolter intercessors+ 3-4 aggressors + 1 inceptor. All these models are better off shooting so more firepower and staying mobile is big, and the ability to fall back and shoot is huge. It will be interesting to see how they will handle mixed toughness in the unit.

I gotta disagree with intercesors or reivers not adding much. With special issue ammo they are a real threat to anything that is not a vehicle.

Which helblasters already are so what are the other models adding? Cheap bodies? It is not that those choices are bad per say it is that they bring nothing (other than cheap bodies to die first) to a helblasters squad. If given the option of 5 helblasters with 5 special issue inceptors, or 7-8 Helblasters I’d rather have the extra helblasters for essentially they same cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I’m assuming there is a max squad size of 10 and for things like stratagems it matters when things have more models. This also assumes that points are unchanged for both models. If intercessors go up for SI ammo then it is even more likely that I’ll want to run just more helblasters in another squad.

Well the intercessors and reivers do add cheap(er) bodies so yeah I think that is very important actually because they screen out your hellblasters. One of the best things about shooting hellblaster squads is that you get immediete value for each model killed. When you mix that squad with intercessors you effectively cut the reward for each kill in half. Two intercessors also put out resptable firepower with SIA against a variety of targets and can't kill themselves with their own shooting on top of adding just that little bit of extra melee pressure and board control.