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So I'm looking to try and pick up WH40k and was thinking of running CSM. I've played it on and off a bit over the past few years with my brother and have a small amount of space marine stuff (maybe 25 tac marines and a rhino). Before I jump in and drop hundreds of dollars, I'd like to make use of what I have to learn to game. So, my question is how similar are the playstyles of CSM and SM?

I ask because I like the CSM from an aesthetic point of view and the fact that I can run demons with them. Since I don't really know how they play, I was thinking of just running SM while I figure it all out and assume they'd play similarly but I'm just looking for some feedback and thoughts from other people who have more experience with the game.

Heh. Trying to learn how to play CSM by playing SM might be tough, they are very different armies.

I've played Chaos for a very long time. The army mostly consists of short range weapons, psychic powers that help you in close combat, mechanical beasts that are either very shooty of smash things in close combat, or big hordes that do damage with volume of fire.

Space Marines are different, they have more guns on any vehicle, they have access to a broader range of weapons (many of which have a longer range), they have access to a lot of units that do not have a parallel in the Chaos range, and they get all these special rules that just do not apply in other armies.

So think about that. It's fine to start with Space Marines, they are a great army for learning the rules and mechanics of the game. But understand you are really talking about learning 2 completely different armies.

The other thing about Chaos is there are now several kinds of Chaos - Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Daemons, Death Guard, Thousand Sons, and Renegades and Heretics. Each has it's own unique playstyle. While I play strictly Black Legion, most of the other Chaos players I know have some combination in their armies. It's expected that, before too long, there will also be Codexes for World Eaters and Emperor's Children. So you have that to look forward to.

If I had to point someone at a Chaos Legion for learning the game, it would be Alpha Legion. AL is the most forgiving legion, you only need the Chaos Space Marine Codex to play them, and they make excellent allies when you decide to build something more exotic.

Good luck!

Thanks for the response. I was thinking of running Alpha Legion (or some offshoot with different colors) just because I like their backstory. But, since I don't know the rules I don't know if they'd be right for me. I'm planning on running more of a melee heavy list with some shooting to help get me in range (so World Eaters would probably be perfect if they make them).

But thanks for the advice. I think I will give SM a try while I'm learning the game but I'll just need to swap over to CSM sooner rather than later so I can get used to their playstyle.

Nah, start learning with Alpha Legion. So many choices in the SM codex are SUPER redundant whereas the CSM codex, while obviously not perfect, has clear choices and defined roles for everything for the most part.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing you'll miss with Chaos is the Primaris line. So think about if that's a deciding factor for you.

As someone who plays both chaos and loyal marines, the key difference in play style is Chaos wants to be up close and personal, while Codex marines prefer long and mid range firefights. Also, Chaos soup is a very different animal than Imperial soup, in that daemons really compliment their heretical allies (and vice versa) but have to be played in synch to really do much, while Imperial Marine soup just feels redundant in most cases, as guard (a common piece of the Imperial soup) typically just add cheap meat shields and more static shooting. IMO, loyal marines work fine by themselves, but chaos marines kind of need their daemonic allies in some form or another.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
As someone who plays both chaos and loyal marines, the key difference in play style is Chaos wants to be up close and personal, while Codex marines prefer long and mid range firefights. Also, Chaos soup is a very different animal than Imperial soup, in that daemons really compliment their heretical allies (and vice versa) but have to be played in synch to really do much, while Imperial Marine soup just feels redundant in most cases, as guard (a common piece of the Imperial soup) typically just add cheap meat shields and more static shooting. IMO, loyal marines work fine by themselves, but chaos marines kind of need their daemonic allies in some form or another.

I find it is the opposite. CSM runs fine on its own and loyalists need AM for cheap bodies.

overally they probably have more similarities than differences.

It all depends on the list you run. 'Chaos space marines' have access to daemons, cultists etc which can make for a very different list to say a space marine primaris hellblaster castle

then again if you took 3 squads of chaos marines a few predators and some raptors its not a whole lot different from the loyalist equivalent.

If you had to rubber stamp both armies you'd probably say chaos are a bit more in your face cc with tricks and space marines are more reliable mid - long range shooting. I'd go with the army you like the looks of the most, you should not really need to conform to a play style to be a decent player e.g. you should be able to slap down an ork horde and know what ye doing ... so its all about what playstyle is more appealing to you funwise and they are both so similar in a lot of ways you prob wanna go with what looks best for you/background/fluff

In general, Chaos have a lot more gimmicks, more models on t he board, and a lot more synergy. Loyalists rely on insular strength, and elite models that are just "good", without having to fiddle with outside mechanics.

Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

It has the bare minimum of Daemon troops you might summon on the field. Summoning is skubtastic of course.

bacabed wrote:


I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

It does but if you wanna include daemons you are best off getting the daemons codex as you can run a mini separate daemons detachment and access all their stratagems and traits etc. Also specifically to CSM if you include daemons from the codex (or daemons codex) in the same detachment as other CSM they lack the Heretic astartes keyword so you will loose any abilities you get from say alpha legion... unless you summon them in.

So yea basically mini (or bigger) separate daemons detachment is what most folks do. Normally this would be something like a herald and a big unit of something like bloodletters etc... daemons have a cool strat for 1cp that allows them to deepstrike.

Cool, yeah running a detachment of demons sounds like exactly what I'm looking for. I'll probably end up grabbing the CD codex at some point but, for now, I'm going to start with CSM when I can get to the store.

Alpha Legion don't need Daemons either to be effective, so think of it as more looking towards investing in a second army if you buy the Daemon codex.

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

I'm still not fully convinced on Alpha Legion. Not on the whole Legion anyway. I feel there is still wiggle room.

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

Isn't the Alpha Legion's whole shtick that they're kind of mysterious and nobody really knows what they're up to? Granted, I don't know much about the lore beyond the wikis but it sounds like they're big on subterfuge and lying. So the idea (and that was just a quick run-down of it) would be that they're more akin to the Grey Knights but have gone even further than them. Most of the warband wouldn't touch chaos but their command structure wouldn't be averse to enlisting a sorceror to summon some daemons where necessary.

I guess my vision of it would be that they're set up in a cell system where a few infiltrate the other traitor legions but the commanders are completely loyal. Some of them would fall to Chaos but even they would have their purposes (e.g. using a sorceror to ignite a Nurgle daemon incursion on a planet that Slanneshi cultists have taken over to try and weaken it) that, unlike the Grey Knights, the leaders would be willing to use. Due to the cell structure behind it, even the corrupted members of the warband would be able to benefit the Imperium, they just might not know it since they are a secretive organization where various parts of a mission are compartmentalized from one another. And, should one be fully corrupted and no longer under the control of the leading hierarchy, they could be wiped out or disavowed fairly easily.

So I guess it would have two versions that I could build (and I'll probably end up doing both since I've got a bunch of regular tac marines that can go either way): the Chaos version of it where the corrupted cells are called together to act but they don't fully know the purposes of their actions, and the loyalist branch of it coming together to do whatever it is loyalists do. I don't know a ton about the lore to know whether or not that's viable (although I understand that, despite the leaders helping the Imperium, they would be considered heretics and killed on sight if anyone knew who they were) but that's pretty much what I was thinking. So it would boil down to a cell based intelligence organization which utilizes agents who have been corrupted by the warp while also keeping a non-corrupted arm all with the goal of aiding the Imperium through information and strategic strikes.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I'll just play shifty Alpha Legionnaires who like to sometimes bring some daemon friends to play.

Eh, outside of fluff purposes and the romance of a renegade chapter breaking free of the chains of the Imperium to fight the great enemies on their own terms, that type of ideology takes away a lot of what makes the Chaos armies fun and unique.

Chaos Space Marines focus a lot on Key Words. Picking a certain key word can have a huge impact on what abilities and stratagems a unit has access too. In addition, many of CSM's really interesting and unique units are god specific. Like the Noise Marines of Slaanesh, or Plague Marines and unique Nurgle units in the Death Guard Book, or the Rubric Marines and Terminators in the Thousand Sons book, to the iconic Khorne Berzerkers still one of the premiere melee units in the game- if you can get them there!

The most common is players will give the Slaanesh keyword to their Obliterators to unlock the 2 CP Fire Twice Strategem which is really powerful. Half of the fun of Chaos is devoting your units to the Dark Gods and modeling them accordingly.

The Different Legion Traits can also unlock unique abilities which alter the way the armies play. Alpha legion is usually a very strong choice because they have access to the very powerful -1 to hit modifier for all eligible units outside 12 inches. They also have access to the unique Forward Operatives Strategem which lets them place units right up in the opponents face from the word go- and this strategem was not nerfed by the turn one deep strike changes.

Chaos Space Marines are typically more close combat oriented than Space Marines. They have more access to close combat units in the codex, and their natural Daemon Allies are almost exclusively close combat units. As a result in practice CSM often play very up close and personal, compared to Space Marines which lack that same close combat potential and thus prefer to keep to at least mid range in most circumstances. Thats not to say CSM can't put out good shooting lists, and that CSM don't make good shooting armies. Its just that in general other armies will do that better than Chaos Space Marines will.

I guess what I'm trying to say, is if you are going to come home to Chaos, go all in. My preferred way to build a Chaos army is to pick one patron god and dedicate the entire Warband to that God. But there is no right way to play Chaos, but it will quickly become apparent from reading the codex that most of the fun units and tricks in the army are locked behind the Chaos Gods.

As an aside about Summoning. Summoning isn't *bad* but its only good if you have a very large collection of models. You have to "reserve" points for summoning. So in a 2000 point game, you can only summon if you have points to spend. For instance I could put down a 1500 point army and summon up to 500 points of Daemons throughout the course of the game.

Summoning is good because it lets you deploy the unit you need, where you need it- since you only declare what you are summoning mid game, not list building. This means you need a large selection of Daemonic Allies to choose from, so you can pick whatever tool you need for the job. If you have a set list of exactly what you will summon, it will generally be inferior to just fielding those units normally and deep striking them from reserves.

Well I guess I missed the God keywords. I thought CSM were like Space Marines where you just pick a chapter keyword and if it's one that's aligned with a particular god you just get that alignment. Guess that blows up my idea since I would probably need to choose a god (although I'm assuming Chaos Undivided is still a thing). I should probably pick up the book and start reading before thinking about fluff anymore.

Side note: a few people have mentioned summoning daemons. Is it more effective to summon them mid-game or can I start with them in play like normal? I know the old Chaos Daemon rules (I think it was 6th edition but I'm not certain) were something along the lines of you not being able to start with them in play and, instead, you had to pull them in from the warp, although I may be misremembering that. Is that still the case or can I just start with them in play?

Space marines have better guns, chaos marines have better fists. They both still have ranged and close combat weapons, but chaos has always leaned more towards close combat fighting. What shooting they have is generally a bit higher on risk/reward than space marines.

The forgefiend has a ton of shots, but isn't that good of a shot. So you risk missing, but if you hit with them all, it's really awesome.

Summoning bypasses the need to have a daemon detachment, but with that, you lose out on the bonuses of a daemon detachment. I think it's better to start with daemons on the table, but then you would need to get the chaos daemons codex to have all their rules.

5th edition had the rules where you had to split your army in half, and the other half had to arrive from the warp, before that you had to summon them.

bacabed wrote:

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

Isn't the Alpha Legion's whole shtick that they're kind of mysterious and nobody really knows what they're up to? Granted, I don't know much about the lore beyond the wikis but it sounds like they're big on subterfuge and lying. So the idea (and that was just a quick run-down of it) would be that they're more akin to the Grey Knights but have gone even further than them. Most of the warband wouldn't touch chaos but their command structure wouldn't be averse to enlisting a sorceror to summon some daemons where necessary.

I guess my vision of it would be that they're set up in a cell system where a few infiltrate the other traitor legions but the commanders are completely loyal. Some of them would fall to Chaos but even they would have their purposes (e.g. using a sorceror to ignite a Nurgle daemon incursion on a planet that Slanneshi cultists have taken over to try and weaken it) that, unlike the Grey Knights, the leaders would be willing to use. Due to the cell structure behind it, even the corrupted members of the warband would be able to benefit the Imperium, they just might not know it since they are a secretive organization where various parts of a mission are compartmentalized from one another. And, should one be fully corrupted and no longer under the control of the leading hierarchy, they could be wiped out or disavowed fairly easily.

So I guess it would have two versions that I could build (and I'll probably end up doing both since I've got a bunch of regular tac marines that can go either way): the Chaos version of it where the corrupted cells are called together to act but they don't fully know the purposes of their actions, and the loyalist branch of it coming together to do whatever it is loyalists do. I don't know a ton about the lore to know whether or not that's viable (although I understand that, despite the leaders helping the Imperium, they would be considered heretics and killed on sight if anyone knew who they were) but that's pretty much what I was thinking. So it would boil down to a cell based intelligence organization which utilizes agents who have been corrupted by the warp while also keeping a non-corrupted arm all with the goal of aiding the Imperium through information and strategic strikes.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I'll just play shifty Alpha Legionnaires who like to sometimes bring some daemon friends to play.

Alpha Legion uses a lot of cultists to do the dirty work (sabotage) while the marines mop up. According to the latest CSM codex the AL is hardcore chaos. They have demon princes and summon deamons, the whole nine yards. Don't forget that it is thanks to AL and the TS that the imperium got rocked and split in half. Id say if they are loyalist in any fashion then they are doing a horrible job. Its not that some would fall to chaos, almost the entire legion fell. Any splinter factions and loyalist holdovers probably would have joined the Death Watch at this point, or they would have been hunted down by the inquisition.

With the way the current lore works, you are either chaos or not. No wiggle room. Even if you managed to fake mutations and tricked a CSM warband or legion to accept you, you would be bombarded by chaos taint on a daily basis and forced to do tasks which would have them renounce the emporor.

Im really not trying to shut you down here, but what you want to do just isnt possible in the game at the moment. Of course, once more you are free to adjust the lore to your taste and vision but you cant expect others will, which wont matter unless you are playing narrative I guess.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

I'm still not fully convinced on Alpha Legion. Not on the whole Legion anyway. I feel there is still wiggle room.

No wiggle room. As I have stated above the AL were one of two legions to usher in the malidictum. That's pretty damn heretic. And according to the current CSM codex they freely use demon princes and summoning. Several entries of battle logs in that codex have them summoning demons to corrupt worlds.

IF the AL were ever secret loyalists they are no longer. Its been retbombed.

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

Isn't the Alpha Legion's whole shtick that they're kind of mysterious and nobody really knows what they're up to? Granted, I don't know much about the lore beyond the wikis but it sounds like they're big on subterfuge and lying. So the idea (and that was just a quick run-down of it) would be that they're more akin to the Grey Knights but have gone even further than them. Most of the warband wouldn't touch chaos but their command structure wouldn't be averse to enlisting a sorceror to summon some daemons where necessary.

I guess my vision of it would be that they're set up in a cell system where a few infiltrate the other traitor legions but the commanders are completely loyal. Some of them would fall to Chaos but even they would have their purposes (e.g. using a sorceror to ignite a Nurgle daemon incursion on a planet that Slanneshi cultists have taken over to try and weaken it) that, unlike the Grey Knights, the leaders would be willing to use. Due to the cell structure behind it, even the corrupted members of the warband would be able to benefit the Imperium, they just might not know it since they are a secretive organization where various parts of a mission are compartmentalized from one another. And, should one be fully corrupted and no longer under the control of the leading hierarchy, they could be wiped out or disavowed fairly easily.

So I guess it would have two versions that I could build (and I'll probably end up doing both since I've got a bunch of regular tac marines that can go either way): the Chaos version of it where the corrupted cells are called together to act but they don't fully know the purposes of their actions, and the loyalist branch of it coming together to do whatever it is loyalists do. I don't know a ton about the lore to know whether or not that's viable (although I understand that, despite the leaders helping the Imperium, they would be considered heretics and killed on sight if anyone knew who they were) but that's pretty much what I was thinking. So it would boil down to a cell based intelligence organization which utilizes agents who have been corrupted by the warp while also keeping a non-corrupted arm all with the goal of aiding the Imperium through information and strategic strikes.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I'll just play shifty Alpha Legionnaires who like to sometimes bring some daemon friends to play.

Alpha Legion uses a lot of cultists to do the dirty work (sabotage) while the marines mop up. According to the latest CSM codex the AL is hardcore chaos. They have demon princes and summon deamons, the whole nine yards. Don't forget that it is thanks to AL and the TS that the imperium got rocked and split in half. Id say if they are loyalist in any fashion then they are doing a horrible job. Its not that some would fall to chaos, almost the entire legion fell. Any splinter factions and loyalist holdovers probably would have joined the Death Watch at this point, or they would have been hunted down by the inquisition.

With the way the current lore works, you are either chaos or not. No wiggle room. Even if you managed to fake mutations and tricked a CSM warband or legion to accept you, you would be bombarded by chaos taint on a daily basis and forced to do tasks which would have them renounce the emporor.

Im really not trying to shut you down here, but what you want to do just isnt possible in the game at the moment. Of course, once more you are free to adjust the lore to your taste and vision but you cant expect others will, which wont matter unless you are playing narrative I guess.

Oh wow, I didn't realize the fluff had changed that much. Last I knew (and this could also just be me misremembering from years ago) AL was untouched by Chaos in that they didn't embrace it like the others did. That they did bad things but pretty much kept the warp out of it and nobody knew their true intentions. Thank you very much for setting me straight on that one; guess I'll have to wait and see if they come out with some kind of traitor legions that don't use the warp for that idea to work out. I really need to get up to date on the fluff that I've missed out on.

The best thing about SM is you must field Marines.

bacabed wrote:

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:

Table wrote:

bacabed wrote:
Thanks for the responses everyone. So it sounds like running SM while I learn the rules won't give me the exact same experience I'd have with CSM but close enough for my purposes. I just want to avoid dropping hundreds of dollars into a CSM army before I even really know the rules when I have some stuff for SM that I can use to learn.

I have one question about the CSM codex specifically: does it contain rules for demons? I'd like to run an Alpha Legion style army that utilizes some demons to bolster their ranks (the backstory is more or less that they're loyalists who have been disavowed by the IoM so that they can act to take down threats to the Imperium using whatever tactics they want to). So I'm not looking for all of the relics and stratagems but rather just the statlines and points for some of the lesser demons.

Thanks everyone!

Also, not to dump on your lore. But your backstory is not technically workable in game. While a good amount of chaos marines are recent (after the heresy) there is not rules to represent them in transition from loyalist to chaos. Which is a shame really. To do what youd want you would have to use the marine codex and not CSM. Once librarians start fooling with demons they are no longer loyal. Chaos corrupts, it cannot be bargained with. Like heroin, you just don't take one hit and quit. Once the gates are open it is inevitable. So basically you cant use most of the CSM codex with your lore.. You would be best, as I have said above, to use the marine codex or alter your lore to not be loyalist. There are no secretly loyalist CSM legions or warbands. If there ever were they have been retconned. Alpha Legion are flat out heretics and traitors.

So until they come out with a renegade marine codex its a black and white issue. You are however free to use your own homebrew lore but it wont sink with the game world at large, if that matters to you at all.

Isn't the Alpha Legion's whole shtick that they're kind of mysterious and nobody really knows what they're up to? Granted, I don't know much about the lore beyond the wikis but it sounds like they're big on subterfuge and lying. So the idea (and that was just a quick run-down of it) would be that they're more akin to the Grey Knights but have gone even further than them. Most of the warband wouldn't touch chaos but their command structure wouldn't be averse to enlisting a sorceror to summon some daemons where necessary.

I guess my vision of it would be that they're set up in a cell system where a few infiltrate the other traitor legions but the commanders are completely loyal. Some of them would fall to Chaos but even they would have their purposes (e.g. using a sorceror to ignite a Nurgle daemon incursion on a planet that Slanneshi cultists have taken over to try and weaken it) that, unlike the Grey Knights, the leaders would be willing to use. Due to the cell structure behind it, even the corrupted members of the warband would be able to benefit the Imperium, they just might not know it since they are a secretive organization where various parts of a mission are compartmentalized from one another. And, should one be fully corrupted and no longer under the control of the leading hierarchy, they could be wiped out or disavowed fairly easily.

So I guess it would have two versions that I could build (and I'll probably end up doing both since I've got a bunch of regular tac marines that can go either way): the Chaos version of it where the corrupted cells are called together to act but they don't fully know the purposes of their actions, and the loyalist branch of it coming together to do whatever it is loyalists do. I don't know a ton about the lore to know whether or not that's viable (although I understand that, despite the leaders helping the Imperium, they would be considered heretics and killed on sight if anyone knew who they were) but that's pretty much what I was thinking. So it would boil down to a cell based intelligence organization which utilizes agents who have been corrupted by the warp while also keeping a non-corrupted arm all with the goal of aiding the Imperium through information and strategic strikes.

If that doesn't work, then I guess I'll just play shifty Alpha Legionnaires who like to sometimes bring some daemon friends to play.

Alpha Legion uses a lot of cultists to do the dirty work (sabotage) while the marines mop up. According to the latest CSM codex the AL is hardcore chaos. They have demon princes and summon deamons, the whole nine yards. Don't forget that it is thanks to AL and the TS that the imperium got rocked and split in half. Id say if they are loyalist in any fashion then they are doing a horrible job. Its not that some would fall to chaos, almost the entire legion fell. Any splinter factions and loyalist holdovers probably would have joined the Death Watch at this point, or they would have been hunted down by the inquisition.

With the way the current lore works, you are either chaos or not. No wiggle room. Even if you managed to fake mutations and tricked a CSM warband or legion to accept you, you would be bombarded by chaos taint on a daily basis and forced to do tasks which would have them renounce the emporor.

Im really not trying to shut you down here, but what you want to do just isnt possible in the game at the moment. Of course, once more you are free to adjust the lore to your taste and vision but you cant expect others will, which wont matter unless you are playing narrative I guess.

Oh wow, I didn't realize the fluff had changed that much. Last I knew (and this could also just be me misremembering from years ago) AL was untouched by Chaos in that they didn't embrace it like the others did. That they did bad things but pretty much kept the warp out of it and nobody knew their true intentions. Thank you very much for setting me straight on that one; guess I'll have to wait and see if they come out with some kind of traitor legions that don't use the warp for that idea to work out. I really need to get up to date on the fluff that I've missed out on.

I just thought of something. Perhaps you can use the upcoming Death Watch codex to represent loyalist Alpha Legion. Not sure if its possible to have a whole army of black shields however. They really should release a renegade marine codex there are already several chapters that have gone this route, soul drinkers being one of them. I think this and a dark mechanicum codex are my two most wish listed things in 40k.

Is Deathwatch something a beginner should even try to run? I don't know a ton about it but it sounds like it would be a mess of rules with their kill teams. I like the idea of an elite force (I would like to, eventually, be able to run a faction that is generally outnumbered by the opponent) but just based on the knowledge I have of it it sounds like you need to run different loadouts on models in the same kill team and that just seems like a lot to track when I start out.

I guess you are on to something. I would not recommend death watch to a newer player. In reality, the best thing for you to do is to just go with your original concept and just accept it isn't lore exact. Perhaps your renegade legion has just started using chaos goodies and have yet to be mutated and corrupted (which will happen). So yea, if you think the CSM codex is going to be more fun to play then go for it. Just steer clear of the cult marines as they are 100% chaos and worship one of the 4 ruinous powers. There is no doubt in anyones mind what side a khorne zerker is playing for. Which kinda suck because the for cult troops are pretty potent (less so in 8th) at different levels of power. You may also want to stay away from demon engines as they have to be made by the dark mech and y ou would need contact with them obtain them. Summoning demons could work if you keep your chapter in a transitory state (from loyalist to corrupt). Cultists would be ok I think as you are using chaos to fight chaos.

But with these restrictions in place I would honestly say SM codex would be a more powerful and permissive choice for rules.

Don't start with Space Marines, they're incredibly bland, and the tactics are essentially "maximize rerolls and shoot the most dangerous thing," and they're not even that effective at doing that. Everything in the codex is balanced around the assumption of constant rerolls, so rerolls are not a bonus, they are a bare minimum requirement to operate. Seriously, do a bit of digging into all of the factions, I would seriously strongly recommend you not start with Space Marines. They are bad.

On the other hand, Loyalists are the basic unit of the game. Everything else is measured by them. Guard are -1 everything. Custotes are +1 everything. Eldar are +1 speed -1 durability. Thematically, most other factions are best described as how they relate (thematically, at least) to Marines.

I don't find playing them bland. "Top tier" lists, sure. As bland as Leafblower, IG gunline, ScatterBike, or whatnot.

I wouldn't choose an army based on competitiveness. But if you want an army that is top tier more often, only CWE has been top tier more frequently than Marines. They aren't in a good spot right now (not that you can tell from the forums - they're the same regardless of how good/bad Marines are doing), but they've spent most of the game as contenders.

A gunline becomes "shoot the most dangerous things". And competitive Marine lists tend to be gunlines. But outside tournies, Marines have a lot more. An army whos backbone is a Dev squad, an ASM squad, a couple Tacs, and some filler has some basic tools to do a lot of different things in the same game. Sure, it loses to <insert current top list>, but what doesn't (aside from CWE)? Most games aren't as competitive as Tourny games, and when you start you certainly aren't a top-table Tourny competitor.

I'd suggest starting an army you like. Get into the fluff of something. And build from there. If your core is a couple Tac squads, a Dev/Havoc squad, an ASM/Raptor, and either a Libby/Sorc or Captain/Lord, you can play the chapter you want. Then, depending on how many spikes you enjoyed putting on your army, or whether you'd rather have Primaris or demon friends, you can decide which way you want to go.

I'm really glad I started with SM. There's so much to playing SM that you don't get in other factions. If I had started with CWE (my favorite), there'd be so much to this game I just wouldn't have gotten.

How would someone use the deathwatch codex to represent AL? I'm asking for a friend....

Stevencopley20063 wrote:
How would someone use the deathwatch codex to represent AL? I'm asking for a friend....

You cant. AL are traitors. The best you could do is run as many blackshields as possible and say they are ex AL.