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Made in gb
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine






I don't know if this has been suggested before, but if you couldn't fall back if you have been charged that turn (lets call it "battle shock") then melee troops that make the charge are not going to be left high and dry the next turn and open for shooting?

It gets rid of the trying to tie up a unit shenanigans, if the charging unit kills the unit it charged, then fair enough.

Almost like a semi tarpit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
maybe even a "Shock Troops" stratagem that allows the above for 1cp?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/12 18:28:31


If you ever play with "that guy" remember this :
"there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!), If no single solution presents itself, you and your opponent should roll off, and whoever rolls the highest gets to choose what happens." BRB pg 180 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




don't object to fall back when you can now, just think it should not be without risk

even if a case of "roll 1d6 for every enemy model in the unit being withdrawn from, on a 6+ the falling back unit suffers a mortal wound"

turning your back on an enemy shouldn't be without risk, but breaking from a smaller unit should be safer than from a horde
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

leopard wrote:
don't object to fall back when you can now, just think it should not be without risk

even if a case of "roll 1d6 for every enemy model in the unit being withdrawn from, on a 6+ the falling back unit suffers a mortal wound"

turning your back on an enemy shouldn't be without risk, but breaking from a smaller unit should be safer than from a horde


But the thing is, why is it safer to run away from, say, a singular Daemon Prince than six guardsmen?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JNAProductions wrote:
leopard wrote:
don't object to fall back when you can now, just think it should not be without risk

even if a case of "roll 1d6 for every enemy model in the unit being withdrawn from, on a 6+ the falling back unit suffers a mortal wound"

turning your back on an enemy shouldn't be without risk, but breaking from a smaller unit should be safer than from a horde


But the thing is, why is it safer to run away from, say, a singular Daemon Prince than six guardsmen?


It isn't, just trying to keep things simple

I'd love the return of the "free hack" from WHFB 3rd so yes you can willingly walk away, but the unit you back away from gets a round of combat against you as you do it - so say a squad of terminators or a daemon engaged by a couple of grots won't care, but the other way round gets messy
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





leopard wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
leopard wrote:
don't object to fall back when you can now, just think it should not be without risk

even if a case of "roll 1d6 for every enemy model in the unit being withdrawn from, on a 6+ the falling back unit suffers a mortal wound"

turning your back on an enemy shouldn't be without risk, but breaking from a smaller unit should be safer than from a horde


But the thing is, why is it safer to run away from, say, a singular Daemon Prince than six guardsmen?


It isn't, just trying to keep things simple

I'd love the return of the "free hack" from WHFB 3rd so yes you can willingly walk away, but the unit you back away from gets a round of combat against you as you do it - so say a squad of terminators or a daemon engaged by a couple of grots won't care, but the other way round gets messy
I think this would be the best thing to have.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





If the General thread is any indication, I'm not so sure the majority of the playerbase is in either the "Make fallback worse" camp or the "Keep it exactly as is" camp.

There doesn't seem to be consensus on "Fallback is free", much because people tend to be talking on different terms.

The Mortal Wounds thing would be odd in that my Marines would suffer more than someone's Guardsmen.

Also, a Rhino drives at a bunch of super fast and agile guys. Why can't they walk away from the Rhino, allowing their friends to shoot at it?
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






I hate it when the enemy falls back and shoots up my berserkers, so I've started combo-charging a lot of units so that if he chooses to fall back he'll be doing so with most of his guys and then will have very few people left to shoot with. I understand this is a tactic that can always be used, but I've found that the extra overwatch is worth it to prevent that unit from shooting me on the following turn after I wipe his unit or it falls back.

No one ever wants to play with my zerkers.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




That works okay until most of the enemy army is out of charge range. Ala 160 guardsmen three ranks deep.
   
Made in gb
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine






Bharring wrote:
If the General thread is any indication, I'm not so sure the majority of the playerbase is in either the "Make fallback worse" camp or the "Keep it exactly as is" camp.

There doesn't seem to be consensus on "Fallback is free", much because people tend to be talking on different terms.

The Mortal Wounds thing would be odd in that my Marines would suffer more than someone's Guardsmen.

Also, a Rhino drives at a bunch of super fast and agile guys. Why can't they walk away from the Rhino, allowing their friends to shoot at it?


I see what you are saying, and yes the mortal wounds does seem a bit overkill (if you pardon the pun).

The issue is that at the moment the "super fast guys" can walk away from a Rhino, but also the Rhino can walk away from the super fast guys, this just seems a bit harsh on the super fast guys to me.

Hence why it would be nice to have "Something" that the super fast guys can employ in order to stop things just walking away from them.

If you ever play with "that guy" remember this :
"there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!), If no single solution presents itself, you and your opponent should roll off, and whoever rolls the highest gets to choose what happens." BRB pg 180 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Lets be specific.

A Serpent charges a Tac squad with one guy left. There's an LC Dev squad right next to the Tac squad, and a LasPred not that far off, either.

On the SM player's turn, is it reasonable that nobody can touch the Serpent? Wouldn't it be reasonable that the Devs or Preds have some way to shoot?

Seems to me, it's quite thematically right for the Tac to back off a step and let his Brothers light it up.

So either, not-to-costly fallback or shooting into CC - and shooting into CC sounds dumb.
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

Bharring wrote:
Lets be specific.

A Serpent charges a Tac squad with one guy left. There's an LC Dev squad right next to the Tac squad, and a LasPred not that far off, either.

On the SM player's turn, is it reasonable that nobody can touch the Serpent? Wouldn't it be reasonable that the Devs or Preds have some way to shoot?

Seems to me, it's quite thematically right for the Tac to back off a step and let his Brothers light it up.

So either, not-to-costly fallback or shooting into CC - and shooting into CC sounds dumb.


Unless the Tactical Marine is busy finding his footing, since he just had a giant hover-tank ram into him. It didn't do any damage, but the grav upwash and whatnot is making it difficult to retreat. And his battle brothers refuse to fire into it when they might hit such a dear comrade.

I'm a fan of the free swings, though-it makes how scary you are in CC matter for retreating. In this case, the Marine can flee freely, basically-the Wave Serpent is very unlikely to do damage to him. But if we replace Wave Serpent with Daemon Prince, suddenly it's much scarier to turn your back on him.

I would also enjoy the following rule added to, say, Conscripts, Grots, and probably other units:

Expendable-This unit just doesn't matter. Who cares if they die? You may fire into a unit in close combat if that close combat involves only enemy units and units with this rule. However, any misses (or any hit rolls of 1, maybe) hit your Expendable unit instead. (If there are multiple Expendable units involved in the combat, the closest is targeted.)

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine






Expendable I like that one!

Maybe it might work as a stratagem, so it's has a cost implication rather than a flat rule.

If you ever play with "that guy" remember this :
"there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!), If no single solution presents itself, you and your opponent should roll off, and whoever rolls the highest gets to choose what happens." BRB pg 180 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 gkos wrote:
Expendable I like that one!

Maybe it might work as a stratagem, so it's has a cost implication rather than a flat rule.


I think it could work as both. Grots and Conscripts? (Especially Conscripts-they need SOMETHING after the nerf.) They can get the rule entirely.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Perturbed Blood Angel Tactical Marine






It would be thematic to be sure, I can't think a Captain in the Imperium would give a rats fart about a conscript.

And Orks would just find it funny..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/14 16:29:37


If you ever play with "that guy" remember this :
"there may be times when you are not sure exactly how to resolve a situation that has come up during play. When this happens, have a quick chat with your opponent and apply the solution that makes the most sense to both of you (or seems the most fun!), If no single solution presents itself, you and your opponent should roll off, and whoever rolls the highest gets to choose what happens." BRB pg 180 
   
Made in ca
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






Free swings sound nice and simple, but would it trigger abilities that say Berzerkers have?

Or since it happens in the movement phase it wouldn't trigger. I haven't read the rule so I don't know what it says exactly
   
Made in ca
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





London, Ontario

From a Guardsman's perspective, fleeing CC is good regardless of cost. Those boys are gunna die. May as well die so the rest of the team can shoot the guys up close.

Once a unit is depleted, they're a speed bump regardless of armament. IG strategy frequently makes good use of sacrificial "pawns" to trade up in "piece value".

I would trade any unit in my army to hold up a 400 point butcher-squad for another turn so I can shoot it again. Hordes never suffer in the way MEQ do with rules that punish fallback.
   
Made in us
Fighter Ace





In a Desert Exile

 gkos wrote:
I don't know if this has been suggested before, but if you couldn't fall back if you have been charged that turn (lets call it "battle shock") then melee troops that make the charge are not going to be left high and dry the next turn and open for shooting?

It gets rid of the trying to tie up a unit shenanigans, if the charging unit kills the unit it charged, then fair enough.

Almost like a semi tarpit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
maybe even a "Shock Troops" stratagem that allows the above for 1cp?


So myself and a couple of friends have been trying the following with good results.

When you fall back from CC, roll a LD test. If you fail, the unit takes D3 mortal wounds.

Salamanders are the best chapter.

 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 fraser1191 wrote:
Free swings sound nice and simple, but would it trigger abilities that say Berzerkers have?

Or since it happens in the movement phase it wouldn't trigger. I haven't read the rule so I don't know what it says exactly


It would not trigger Blood For The Blood God. Khorne Berserkers can fight a second time during the Fight Phase.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

I'd suggest a reverse overwatch mechanic, where the unit that was falling back is attacked by the charging unit, hitting at -1. Makes falling back from elite enemies potentially very costly, but not impossible.

Bedouin Dynasty: 7k+ pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd suggest a reverse overwatch mechanic, where the unit that was falling back is attacked by the charging unit, hitting at -1. Makes falling back from elite enemies potentially very costly, but not impossible.


Oooh, I like this a lot! Except instead of -1 to hit make it only hitting on 6s. That's beautiful! Though, I don't personally feel like falling back is too powerful and/or needs to be balanced.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd go with a "free hack" meaning that all models in the unit being withdrawn from get to make a single attack each with any one weapon they are carrying - no re-rolls from models outside the unit, no other effects that apply in combat, just one strike from each.

That one marine facing a WS can back off and face it trying to knock him over once, then it can be shot at - but there is always the risk.

Whats its meant to do is stop a chaff unit pulling out of a combat unit without injury to allow said combat unit to be blasted - you can still do it, but it will hurt
   
Made in us
Long-Range Ultramarine Land Speeder Pilot






 Kharneth wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd suggest a reverse overwatch mechanic, where the unit that was falling back is attacked by the charging unit, hitting at -1. Makes falling back from elite enemies potentially very costly, but not impossible.


Oooh, I like this a lot! Except instead of -1 to hit make it only hitting on 6s. That's beautiful! Though, I don't personally feel like falling back is too powerful and/or needs to be balanced.


Have you played against an army that has majority FLY units? Ie Tau, or DE

This is the troubling issue imo, it's quite frustrating when you make it into melee to tie up a tank or other such unit but since it has fly it just backs up and shoots you without a penalty
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 fraser1191 wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd suggest a reverse overwatch mechanic, where the unit that was falling back is attacked by the charging unit, hitting at -1. Makes falling back from elite enemies potentially very costly, but not impossible.


Oooh, I like this a lot! Except instead of -1 to hit make it only hitting on 6s. That's beautiful! Though, I don't personally feel like falling back is too powerful and/or needs to be balanced.


Have you played against an army that has majority FLY units? Ie Tau, or DE

This is the troubling issue imo, it's quite frustrating when you make it into melee to tie up a tank or other such unit but since it has fly it just backs up and shoots you without a penalty


I'm aware of flying units. I'd suggest they still have the attacks applied.

Bedouin Dynasty: 7k+ pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 fraser1191 wrote:
 Kharneth wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
I'd suggest a reverse overwatch mechanic, where the unit that was falling back is attacked by the charging unit, hitting at -1. Makes falling back from elite enemies potentially very costly, but not impossible.


Oooh, I like this a lot! Except instead of -1 to hit make it only hitting on 6s. That's beautiful! Though, I don't personally feel like falling back is too powerful and/or needs to be balanced.


Have you played against an army that has majority FLY units? Ie Tau, or DE

This is the troubling issue imo, it's quite frustrating when you make it into melee to tie up a tank or other such unit but since it has fly it just backs up and shoots you without a penalty


I have not yet. I've played against DE but this thing never came up. Is flying out of combat the same as falling back? I, personally, wouldn't expect anything needs to be changed in that regard. If a person is falling back from combat with boots on the ground, I think a melee-overwatch would be an awesome rule, however if the enemy is going to fly out of combat and turn around to shoot you (such as Tau) I say let them do it. That's one of their gimmicks. I wouldn't expect one of my melee-ers to catch a guy like that.

The way I see it, it'd go like this... berzerkers charge into a group of battlesuits and carve a couple of them into pieces, then the remaining battlesuit jets off into the sky. The berzerkers already attacked; while they were hacking apart his comrades, the last battlesuit was gtfoing. I guess the counter is that the remaining battlesuit actually attacked back before he flew out of combat.

What if falling back from a melee replaced your attacks? Instead of falling back being during your movement phase, have it be during your enemy's fight phase. When you select your unit you have two options: A) Fight or B) Fall Back.

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

How about units with fly, instead of taking melee attacks at a -1 to hit, are only hit on 6's when falling back?
I think that might be a way to keep the gimmick, but strengthen melee.

As far as when it happens... if they disengage instead of fighting, and take the attacks, that seems fairly reasonable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 15:21:25


Bedouin Dynasty: 7k+ pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in us
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 iGuy91 wrote:
How about units with fly, instead of taking melee attacks at a -1 to hit, are only hit on 6's when falling back?
I think that might be a way to keep the gimmick, but strengthen melee.


I don't think melee attacks of opportunity should even be -1 to hit, they should be only one 6s to begin with. That is in line with Overwatch. Getting to make full attacks that hit on a -1 during your enemy's movement phase is so overpowered. No one would survive a fall back move. It'd just be "I kill my unit to unlock your unit so I can shoot you."

Blood for the Blood God!
Skulls for the Skull Throne! 
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator




In My Lab

 iGuy91 wrote:
How about units with fly, instead of taking melee attacks at a -1 to hit, are only hit on 6's when falling back?
I think that might be a way to keep the gimmick, but strengthen melee.


Not a fan. Melee should hit harder than shooting, since shooting can enact its power at ranged, but melee cannot. Plus, it screws over anyone who relies on a smaller number of more potent attacks.

Not to mention, it means that a tank is actually BETTER at this than most ordinary units-same WS, more attacks, higher strength. A Land Raider should not be scarier to back away from than a squad of Marines, because quite simply put, the Land Raider is a vehicle, and not a walker. Marines are capable of fighting much better than it.

 Kharneth wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
How about units with fly, instead of taking melee attacks at a -1 to hit, are only hit on 6's when falling back?
I think that might be a way to keep the gimmick, but strengthen melee.


I don't think melee attacks of opportunity should even be -1 to hit, they should be only one 6s to begin with. That is in line with Overwatch. Getting to make full attacks that hit on a -1 during your enemy's movement phase is so overpowered. No one would survive a fall back move. It'd just be "I kill my unit to unlock your unit so I can shoot you."


Would that be so bad, though? Durable units will survive just fine, and it requires you to have a powerful melee unit in combat with them to be a real threat at -1, but if I get, say, Mortarion in combat with a squad of Infantry, and some miraculously survive, they SHOULD be boned if they try to retreat!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 15:23:35


Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker





Somewhere over the rainbow, way up high

 Kharneth wrote:
 iGuy91 wrote:
How about units with fly, instead of taking melee attacks at a -1 to hit, are only hit on 6's when falling back?
I think that might be a way to keep the gimmick, but strengthen melee.


I don't think melee attacks of opportunity should even be -1 to hit, they should be only one 6s to begin with. That is in line with Overwatch. Getting to make full attacks that hit on a -1 during your enemy's movement phase is so overpowered. No one would survive a fall back move. It'd just be "I kill my unit to unlock your unit so I can shoot you."


Alright. Lets run with that then. Disenage instead of fighting that phase, and take fallback attacks hitting on 6+?
Flying units still retain the ability to shoot after disengaging, which retains their little gimmick

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 15:26:10


Bedouin Dynasty: 7k+ pts
The Silver Lances: 4k pts

MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum. 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Simple solution is to make fall back require a roll-off ala Wyches, with a bonus equal to half your current movement value. If the unit that is trying to fall back wins the roll-off, it gets to fall back.

Example: Rhino (in the 3nd wound bracket) tries to fall back from some Banshees. Rhino rolls a D6+2, Banshees roll a D6+3. If the Rhino wins it gets to fall back as per the current rules. If it doesn't it can't fall back.

Example 2: A Coldstar Commander tries to fall back from some Necron Warriors. The Coldstar rolls a D6+10, Necron Warriors roll a D6+2. If the Coldstar wins it gets to fall back as per the current rules. If it doesn't it can't fall back.

This lets speedy units escape slower units.

Alternatively instead of using the roll off rules (which require ties to be re-rolled) make it a separate mechanic where draws result in a fail. This could also be used to give a "1 always fails" rule if desired to give slower units SOME chance of keeping a speedy unit tied up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/15 15:33:18


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; Genestealer Cults can no longer move after ambushing; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; single use weapons MUST be fired the first time a model shoots if they are in range and LOS, if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; the Agents of Vect stratagem can be used by ANY Drukhari army, not just one with a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; and Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
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In My Lab

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Simple solution is to make fall back require a roll-off ala Wyches, with a bonus equal to half your current movement value. If the unit that is trying to fall back wins the roll-off, it gets to fall back.

Example: Rhino (in the 3nd wound bracket) tries to fall back from some Banshees. Rhino rolls a D6+2, Banshees roll a D6+3. If the Rhino wins it gets to fall back as per the current rules. If it doesn't it can't fall back.

Example 2: A Coldstar Commander tries to fall back from some Necron Warriors. The Coldstar rolls a D6+10, Necron Warriors roll a D6+2. If the Coldstar wins it gets to fall back as per the current rules. If it doesn't it can't fall back.

This lets speedy units escape slower units.

Alternatively instead of using the roll off rules (which require ties to be re-rolled) make it a separate mechanic where draws result in a fail. This could also be used to give a "1 always fails" rule if desired to give slower units SOME chance of keeping a speedy unit tied up.


Also not really a fan of this. It makes movement the only relevant stat for escaping combat-so a horde of 30 Plaguebearers, almost entirely surrounding a unit with only a little space to escape, with full Epidemius buffs, a Poxbringer and a Spoilpox Scrivener nearby, and Virulent Blessing on them roll 1d6+2 to stop someone from escaping. A lone Space Marine Biker (Move of 14") rolls 1d6+7. Despite the biker having a...

Less than .01% chance of surviving a round of combat with them, has a greater than 97% chance of escaping.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
 
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