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Since Initiative is no longer a thing and there is no longer a "Swings Last" penalty, does that mean it makes sense to arm SM Characters with Power Fists?

Not really. Thunder hammers are much better.

Hammer time!

No, Thunder Hammers are the superior choice. Power Fists are useless

Does Chaos get Thunder Hammers?

If I go Loyalist I've already got my eye on a captain with Jump Pack, Thunderhammer and Stormshield.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, Thunder Hammers are the superior choice. Power Fists are useless

After CA isn't the difference between Powerfist and Thunder Hammer 12 vs 22 points? Of course, 10 points isn't relevant for the difference in damage when you are equiping a character, but... for sargeants or other minor characters...

The poor loser in this is the chainfist. If powerfist are 12 points, a Chainfist should be 14 points max.

Chaos still wants Power Fists, mostly because it's literally their heaviest weapon, with no hammers. So, age of chaos fists...Age of imperium hammers.

An Ork Nob with a PK use to be an unholy murder machine that did the same amount of killing as a good chunk of the Boyz in his mob. Against a vehicle the PK Nob could single handedly rip the transmission out of a Leman Russ battle tank and turn a Rhino into what resembled a rear ended Ford Pinto. These days the PK is a pale imitation of its former glory which mediocre damage output for a rather high points cost. In general though the combination of fairly high durability on vehicles, the -1 to hit, new to wound chart, lack of bonus attacks on the charge makes the weapon struggle while volume of attacks are both good against mobs and decent enough against big stuff (especially when they have good invuln saves) makes a hard to land big blow not all that appealing. Obviously models with high base attacks get the most out of the weapon Fist/PK but it's certainly not the vehicle destroyer or MC brutalizer it use to be.

 Galas wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, Thunder Hammers are the superior choice. Power Fists are useless

After CA isn't the difference between Powerfist and Thunder Hammer 12 vs 22 points? Of course, 10 points isn't relevant for the difference in damage when you are equiping a character, but... for sargeants or other minor characters...

The poor loser in this is the chainfist. If powerfist are 12 points, a Chainfist should be 14 points max.

Word. Chainfists should be a much better value than they currently are.

-1 to hit is still an issue. As such I'm looking forward to more nobs with big choppas. Those are pretty killy anyway especially without -1 to hit and the D2 damage is superior to d3 damage so that's good.

tneva82 wrote:
-1 to hit is still an issue. As such I'm looking forward to more nobs with big choppas. Those are pretty killy anyway especially without -1 to hit and the D2 damage is superior to d3 damage so that's good.

Not sure about that. Pks wound on 2s T4 and T5 models and on 3s pretty much everything tougher while big choppas only wound on 5s high armored T8 units and on 4s T7 models. They also have AP-3 which is way better than AP-1.

I vastly prefer pks over big choppas. Unless you're looking for a single unit with special melee weapons like a squad of nobz, in that case lots of S7 AP-1 damage2 attacks are a good option. But a single dude with the big choppa isn't killy at all.

The -1 to hit and the +6 points are drawbacks but the better S and AP are pros. Damage is the same on average, I too prefer the flat 2 but in an entire game there's really no difference. Since units of boyz can benefit from having more attacks thanks to ghaz, the weirdboy and the number of the unit while the nob leading boyz is cheaper than a regular nob I prefer giving pks to large mobs of boyz. +13 or 7 points on a 180 points units isn't that different but a pk with 5-6 attacks, eventually hitting on 3s with the banner, and tons of ablative wounds is a decent option.

Not sure about other imperium armies but with SW p.fists are dead since thunder hammers costs only +4 points but they have a better profile. On characters the difference is +9 points but there aren't many SW characters that want a p.fist or thunder hammer anyway.

-1 to hit sucks.

Oh and while d3 and 2 averages same it has HUGE effect because "it averages out" ONLY applies when you are hitting on very big wound pool. But against say W2 models "1" is NOT averaged out by "3" later. Yes math says (1+3)/2=2 same as (2+2)/2 but in practice the 3 is wasted while 1 requires extra attack which then has d3 damage irrelevant. Saying in entire game there's really no difference is being either dishonest or you only use multi damage weapons only against stuff like tanks. No primaris etc there? Plenty of W2/W4 guys here where D2 is vastly superior to Dd3.

All either one is IMO bad option. Yes there are cases where one is superior to other but reverse is true. Mix of both gives you flexibility. Against T4-T6 big choppa causes more wounds before saves so if the - save isn't as relevant(opponent has low save or invulnerable save for example) that causes more damage. Similarly against W2 stuff raw killing power needs to be lot better for d3 weakness to be. Rolling that 1 HALVES your damage output while rolling 3 doesn't compensate. Then also that 3-4 power klaws does add up prices. You can quickly add up KMK for the price difference.

I've always stuck power fists and chain fists on everything I could! They're cool!

Depends on the character.

I don't like anything with a -1 to hit on a model with a 3+ BS. On 2+ though, sure they seem pretty good. The percentage damage reduction for the former is much more significant than the latter.

I think most melee weapons have a place which is nice, the one exception for me being Imperial Chainfists which are clearly costed incorrectly. Chaos ones are are 8pts cheaper!

tneva82 wrote:
-1 to hit sucks.

Oh and while d3 and 2 averages same it has HUGE effect because "it averages out" ONLY applies when you are hitting on very big wound pool. But against say W2 models "1" is NOT averaged out by "3" later. Yes math says (1+3)/2=2 same as (2+2)/2 but in practice the 3 is wasted while 1 requires extra attack which then has d3 damage irrelevant. Saying in entire game there's really no difference is being either dishonest or you only use multi damage weapons only against stuff like tanks. No primaris etc there? Plenty of W2/W4 guys here where D2 is vastly superior to Dd3.

Yeah in a single occasion D3 and damage 2 are not equal. But when you have 6+ pks on the table and in the entire game you roll 20+ dice about pks attacks in pratcise there's no real difference between damage 2 and D3. 3W models exist and also against 2W or 4W targets the maximum 3 damage may not be wasted since FNP ins't uncommon on heavy infantries.

Tipycally units like primaris or something like that are melt by the boyz attacks, those units are dead before the big choppa or the pk has the chance to swing. The nob's special weapon makes some difference when hitting models with high values of T and a lot of wounds. Usually T7-8 2-3+ save and 8+W. Units of 2W models aren't strong enough to survive tons of S4 attacks. But also against those ones I prefer pks since the AP-1 is really too bland, other than the fact that big choppas wound on 3s instead of 2s.

I agree about having more KMKs, in fact I always bring all my artillery and only after that I equip the nobz with pks if I have spared points. Since I prefer using transports than footsloggers I also usually invest points in tankbustas before pks.

 lolman1c wrote:
I've always stuck power fists and chain fists on everything I could! They're cool!

Yep - my TAC squad sergeant has one - mainly because back when I played 1st edition my sergeants had them. Oh, and the fact that there isn't a thunder hammer in the Start Collecting! Space Marines box

Champion of Humanity always seems to get overlooked as a SM warlord trait, but it synergises really well with a fist (or hammer). +1 to hit and wound against opposing characters gives you back your 2+WS, and ensures you're wounding pretty much every character in the game on a 2.

I like power fists plenty, however it is hurtful against CSMs when facing Imperium units, because the -1 to hit means that the model can never make use of their "Death to the False Emperor" ability which is a pretty big bonus.

If you're a Crimson Fist player, take the Fist of Vengeance on your heaviest hitter and enjoy the carnage. Otherwise, Power Fists aren't great this edition because of the -1 and the fact that the Thunder Hammer does the same job, only better.

YAY Mathhammer time.

7th edition a PK cost 25pts and was so worth taking that i NEVER equipped anything else and took as many as I could. Why? Because in 7th edition a PK Nob was S9 (+1 strength on charge) so he was AUTO glancing most vehicles and had a 5/6th chance to penetrate most of them, on the pens he was +1 because of AP2. So a regular Nob was usually hitting on 3s and penetrating on 2s so usually 2-3 pens and at +1 on the damage chart he could usually do some serious damage, easily 3 HPs but he had a 1/3rd chance to explode the vehicle.

Now for 8th edition. That same Nob is now swinging with a minimum of 3 attacks, usually 4+ he now hits on a 4+ against vehicles so 2 hits, those 2 hits are S10 Vs most vehicles being T6-7 so they wound on a 3+now instead of an auto wound. They now also get an armor save Vs that PK attack. So generally 1 will go through now and do 2 dmg to a vehicle which usually has about 10+ wounds. So yes the price dropped by about 50% but the effectiveness of the weapon has dropped by more then 75%. I have 1 true PK in my tournament list and that is because I can't field the Painboy without a PK, if I could you can bet I would save those points and give him NOTHING. The only other PK weapon I have is on Ghaz and that is because he hits on a 2+ always and does 3dmg each, plus he has 6 attacks.


So is this the edition of Power Fists/Klaws? No, for Orkz in my opinion, they aren't worth taking.

 vaklor4 wrote:
Chaos still wants Power Fists, mostly because it's literally their heaviest weapon, with no hammers. So, age of chaos fists...Age of imperium hammers.

I prefer chainfist on my Terminator Lord. But PF is great on berserker champion.

No, because this is the edition of quantity over quality. The epitet 'Boys before toys' has never been any more truer than in this edition than ever.

I've gone from being happy to use power fists to avoiding them all the time.

Power fists aren't bad. Thunder Hammers are just better, and ~10 points more isn't enough to stop people from using them.

meleti wrote:
Power fists aren't bad. Thunder Hammers are just better, and ~10 points more isn't enough to stop people from using them.

and PKs and Big Choppas aren't worth it, especially when they used to be our premier anti-vehicle weapon.

SemperMortis wrote:
YAY Mathhammer time.

7th edition a PK cost 25pts and was so worth taking that i NEVER equipped anything else and took as many as I could. Why? Because in 7th edition a PK Nob was S9 (+1 strength on charge) so he was AUTO glancing most vehicles and had a 5/6th chance to penetrate most of them, on the pens he was +1 because of AP2. So a regular Nob was usually hitting on 3s and penetrating on 2s so usually 2-3 pens and at +1 on the damage chart he could usually do some serious damage, easily 3 HPs but he had a 1/3rd chance to explode the vehicle.

Now for 8th edition. That same Nob is now swinging with a minimum of 3 attacks, usually 4+ he now hits on a 4+ against vehicles so 2 hits, those 2 hits are S10 Vs most vehicles being T6-7 so they wound on a 3+now instead of an auto wound. They now also get an armor save Vs that PK attack. So generally 1 will go through now and do 2 dmg to a vehicle which usually has about 10+ wounds. So yes the price dropped by about 50% but the effectiveness of the weapon has dropped by more then 75%. I have 1 true PK in my tournament list and that is because I can't field the Painboy without a PK, if I could you can bet I would save those points and give him NOTHING. The only other PK weapon I have is on Ghaz and that is because he hits on a 2+ always and does 3dmg each, plus he has 6 attacks.


So is this the edition of Power Fists/Klaws? No, for Orkz in my opinion, they aren't worth taking.

I really hope you weren't blowing up vehicles in 7th on a 5+ with an AP2 weapon as an explodes result was a 7 on the table, so you needed 6's. Also, if a combat unit charged you (say my Incubi), I'd challenge your Nob and probably kill him bepfre he gets to attack since I5 beats I1/2 any day.

 Imateria wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
YAY Mathhammer time.

7th edition a PK cost 25pts and was so worth taking that i NEVER equipped anything else and took as many as I could. Why? Because in 7th edition a PK Nob was S9 (+1 strength on charge) so he was AUTO glancing most vehicles and had a 5/6th chance to penetrate most of them, on the pens he was +1 because of AP2. So a regular Nob was usually hitting on 3s and penetrating on 2s so usually 2-3 pens and at +1 on the damage chart he could usually do some serious damage, easily 3 HPs but he had a 1/3rd chance to explode the vehicle.

Now for 8th edition. That same Nob is now swinging with a minimum of 3 attacks, usually 4+ he now hits on a 4+ against vehicles so 2 hits, those 2 hits are S10 Vs most vehicles being T6-7 so they wound on a 3+now instead of an auto wound. They now also get an armor save Vs that PK attack. So generally 1 will go through now and do 2 dmg to a vehicle which usually has about 10+ wounds. So yes the price dropped by about 50% but the effectiveness of the weapon has dropped by more then 75%. I have 1 true PK in my tournament list and that is because I can't field the Painboy without a PK, if I could you can bet I would save those points and give him NOTHING. The only other PK weapon I have is on Ghaz and that is because he hits on a 2+ always and does 3dmg each, plus he has 6 attacks.


So is this the edition of Power Fists/Klaws? No, for Orkz in my opinion, they aren't worth taking.

I really hope you weren't blowing up vehicles in 7th on a 5+ with an AP2 weapon as an explodes result was a 7 on the table, so you needed 6's. Also, if a combat unit charged you (say my Incubi), I'd challenge your Nob and probably kill him bepfre he gets to attack since I5 beats I1/2 any day.

Might be that he is saying that with 2 pens and a 6+ chance to cause an explosion that it is roughly a 1/3 chance. More importantly though is that in 7th those Pens are going to mess up a vehicle's fighting power even if it doesn't outright destroy it. Quite often I've seen vehicles get immobilized or stunned by the PK nob and then the next round of combat allows the Nob to swing again due to the vehicle being unable to move.

Also with challenges you need to be really clever about your charge movements and being thoughtful about challenge distances and using piling in to get in range to swing the PK.

So powerfist and powerklas no longer "auto" destroy 100-200 point vehicles and for that they are useless...

Yeah... Look, I also loved when my tactical sargeant one-shot that mechanical monster that charged his unit with a bunch of lucky 6's, but that wasn't good.

The present incarnation of power fist/claws as anti-elite infantry/characters meele-weapon is good enough.

 Galas wrote:
So powerfist and powerklas no longer "auto" destroy 100-200 point vehicles and for that they are useless...

Yeah... Look, I also loved when my tactical sargeant one-shot that mechanical monster that charged his unit with a bunch of lucky 6's, but that wasn't good.

The present incarnation of power fist/claws as anti-elite infantry/characters meele-weapon is good enough.

The issue is that Orks now lack pretty much ANY means of dealing with vehicles.

Marines can handle themselves. Orks can't.

Yeah, because orks sucks. But thats a total different problem.