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2018/05/31 23:00:07
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Been Around the Block
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Is the Oathbreaker Guidance System used before step two of the shooting phase Choose Targets, or once step two is already in progress?
OGS says the stratagem is used before choosing a target for a shieldbreaker missile in your shooting phase. You can't declare that you are using the missile until after step two has started.
The reason I ask is I wonder if the Knights player is locked into using the missile once its been declared, even if Agents of Vect shut down the ability to target a character with it.
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2018/05/31 23:02:47
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Considering you can't declare to NOT fire the Shieldbreaker if something is in LOS and Range, it's not all that critical. If Vect goes off, you don't get the bonus and targeting benefits, if it doesn't you instead have to pick something legal. It can screw over your plan to pick Gulliman for sure, but you just have to suck it up and pick a different target instead.
You are not given permission to only fire some of your weapons, you must fire them all. That means if you have any single use weapons, you must use them the first time you shoot if there is something in LOS and Range of the single use weapon. BRB Page 179 wrote:If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit.
Late after-the-fact Edit: As was pointed out below, Crazy Jay wrote:I have to retract my argument, he’s right. Page 179 of the main rule book plainly states “Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.”
Not sure why he didn’t use this sentence instead of the other but there it is.
I apologise for the confusion, I should have used this rule to begin with.
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This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/06/01 02:21:37
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2018/05/31 23:16:25
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Been Around the Block
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really? I thought it said you had to fire all your weapons unless otherwise stated. For one time use weapons you can't save them for later turns?
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2018/05/31 23:19:56
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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PsychicSpaceElf wrote:really? I thought it said you had to fire all your weapons unless otherwise stated. For one time use weapons you can't save them for later turns?
Do any one use weapons "otherwise state"? All they say is they can be used once per battle, it doesn't give an exception to step 3.3 of the core rules. Clearly, the intent of the rules is to make the Sky Ray a one-hit-wonder. As has been conclusively proven by other members on this forum, RaI is the correct way to play! RaW is for nerds who want to "follow the rules".
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This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/05/31 23:28:39
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2018/05/31 23:27:21
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Yeah that's not how that parses, at all.
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2018/05/31 23:30:43
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Pretty sure it is.
Please answer Yes or No, one word answer, no "Yes, but..." nonsense. I will also accept "the first" or "the second" as a response.
If I have 3 guns ("several weapons"), and I fire 2 of them at a unit of Jeanstealers, have I "[shot] all of them at the same target" or have I "[shot] each at a different enemy unit."?
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/05/31 23:31:52
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2018/05/31 23:32:36
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I was going to bring that up, but I figured I would wait until all his edits are done.
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2018/05/31 23:33:10
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Fragile wrote: I was going to bring that up, but I figured I would wait until all his edits are done.
Same question to you then. Please answer Yes or No, one word answer, no "Yes, but..." nonsense. I will also accept "the first" or "the second" as a response. If I have 3 guns ("several weapons"), and I fire 2 of them at a unit of Jeanstealers, have I "[shot] all of them at the same target" or have I "[shot] each at a different enemy unit."? My edits are mainly correcting typos or grammar issues. This thread I did make an error regarding not being able to target something without LOS with the Shieldbreaker, but a quick re-read of the rulebook showed that the timing of the stratagem works just fine, so I removed that line.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/05/31 23:34:19
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2018/05/31 23:56:04
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Oh not this one again... just add it to your sig. Nobody but you is playing it that way.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/06/01 00:45:17
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BaconCatBug wrote:Fragile wrote:
I was going to bring that up, but I figured I would wait until all his edits are done.
Same question to you then.
Please answer Yes or No, one word answer, no "Yes, but..." nonsense. I will also accept "the first" or "the second" as a response.
If I have 3 guns ("several weapons"), and I fire 2 of them at a unit of Jeanstealers, have I "[shot] all of them at the same target" or have I "[shot] each at a different enemy unit."?
Nothing in the sentence you quoted requires you to
My edits are mainly correcting typos or grammar issues. This thread I did make an error regarding not being able to target something without LOS with the Shieldbreaker, but a quick re-read of the rulebook showed that the timing of the stratagem works just fine, so I removed that line.
Yes, like modern media. Its a race for you to be first, but not be correct.
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2018/06/01 00:58:11
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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That's not a yes or no answer. Here is the full rule, courtesy of the Battle Primer. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next
Please show me in the paragraph where you are given permission to fire only some of your weapons. I have already pointed out the permission to fire all your weapons at one target, or all your weapons at different targets.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/01 00:59:05
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2018/06/01 01:43:18
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You’re showing a paragraph granting permission to fire all of a units weapons, not a requirement to. My unit has permission to move but not a requirement to do so. Permission does not equal requirement.
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2018/06/01 01:51:12
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Crazy Jay wrote:You’re showing a paragraph granting permission to fire all of a units weapons, not a requirement to. My unit has permission to move but not a requirement to do so. Permission does not equal requirement.
I agree. You're not required to fire. However, if you do fire, you must fire all weapons. Thus the first time you shoot, if there is an enemy unit within range and in LOS of a single use weapon, you must fire it at an enemy.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 01:51:46
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2018/06/01 01:56:44
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Stalwart Tribune
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And where does it say that?
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2018/06/01 02:02:22
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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I literally quoted the rule. Read your rulebook.
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2018/06/01 02:05:13
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Crazy Jay wrote:You’re showing a paragraph granting permission to fire all of a units weapons, not a requirement to. My unit has permission to move but not a requirement to do so. Permission does not equal requirement.
Yeah, he's quoting the wrong paragraph for his argument.
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2018/06/01 02:05:41
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I have to retract my argument, he’s right. Page 179 of the main rule book plainly states “Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.”
Not sure why he didn’t use this sentence instead of the other but there it is.
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2018/06/01 02:11:44
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Fragile wrote:Crazy Jay wrote:You’re showing a paragraph granting permission to fire all of a units weapons, not a requirement to. My unit has permission to move but not a requirement to do so. Permission does not equal requirement. Yeah, he's quoting the wrong paragraph for his argument.
No, you've misunderstood my argument. I am not saying you MUST fire, and thus must fire Single Use weapons, I am saying if you decide to fire, the rules state you must fire all your weapons. Automatically Appended Next Post: Crazy Jay wrote:I have to retract my argument, he’s right. Page 179 of the main rule book plainly states “Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with.” Not sure why he didn’t use this sentence instead of the other but there it is.
Fair point, I should have brought it up too. I felt it was superfluous. Thank you for the heads up!
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/06/01 02:16:55
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2018/06/01 02:16:24
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Regular Dakkanaut
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How on earth is it superfluous when it clearly states your case? If you were aware of a clearly worded rule and then chose to use another rule that does not clearly state what you want, then that certainly says you care more about being contrary than actually discussing rules.
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2018/06/01 02:17:39
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Norn Queen
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Crazy Jay wrote:How on earth is it superfluous when it clearly states your case? If you were aware of a clearly worded rule and then chose to use another rule that does not clearly state what you want, then that certainly says you care more about being contrary than actually discussing rules.
Because the rule I quoted also backs up my answer. I suppose a subconscious part of me also wanted to see how many people would automatically disagree with me just because it's me, rather than because of the rules. I will endeavour to work on catching myself before I do that again. I am sorry for the confusion.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/06/01 02:19:00
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2018/06/01 06:30:46
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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Hiwpi: if you use the stratagem successfully the knight player can choose a different target or to not fire the weapon.
BCB may be right rules as written, but to paraphrase him "I like to cheat so the game does what I think the authors meant for it to do", and I assume that gw doesn't want us to be forced to use all our one use weapons the first time we shoot with a model.
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2018/06/01 10:38:26
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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And yet again another thread is derailed by BCB, leaving the original question as merely a handy jumping off point in his continuing quest to be "right".
As far as the original question goes, it's an interesting one for sure. You're right that technically you don't choose your weapon until you've chosen a target so that would seem to imply if the stratagem is denied through AoV you don't need to fire the missile. However, reading the shooting sequence, it actually looks like the whole thing is a little confused since step 2 talks about checking weapon range, when you don't even select the weapon you're using until step 3. That's just...weird. It's one for the FAQ, I think. In fact, looking more closely at the general shooting rules, they need cleaned up anyway.
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2018/06/01 11:13:33
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Slipspace wrote:And yet again another thread is derailed by BCB, leaving the original question as merely a handy jumping off point in his continuing quest to be "right".
Which is why I have him blocked. Not worth wasting time on his drivel....
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Let a billion souls burn in death than for one soul to bend knee to a false Emperor.....
"I am the punishment of God, had you not committed great sin, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you" |
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2018/06/01 11:34:13
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Pretty much
And BCB enough with your delusions of self importance. The rule does not say what you said it does. It allows you to fire weapons at one or more targets - that's all it's saying. Your parsing is off, and I suspect you know it.
That is why I pointed out your error. Nothing more.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 11:36:07
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2018/06/01 11:51:34
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Pretty much
And BCB enough with your delusions of self importance. The rule does not say what you said it does. It allows you to fire weapons at one or more targets - that's all it's saying. Your parsing is off, and I suspect you know it.
That is why I pointed out your error. Nothing more.
BCB can be a pain in the backside, but the core rules are crystal clear when it comes to shooting. Dont blame him for GWs pathetic rule writing. “Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit.
” There is nothing ambiguous about it. I see no exception to this for the shieldbraker missile. When you want to fire it, you have to fire all four.
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2018/06/01 11:57:57
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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The line after is what was quoted, and the line after does not mandate all weapons fire.
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2018/06/01 12:00:45
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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p5freak wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Pretty much
And BCB enough with your delusions of self importance. The rule does not say what you said it does. It allows you to fire weapons at one or more targets - that's all it's saying. Your parsing is off, and I suspect you know it.
That is why I pointed out your error. Nothing more.
BCB can be a pain in the backside, but the core rules are crystal clear when it comes to shooting. Dont blame him for GWs pathetic rule writing. “Unless otherwise stated, each model in the unit attacks with all of the ranged weapons it is armed with. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit.
” There is nothing ambiguous about it. I see no exception to this for the shieldbraker missile. When you want to fire it, you have to fire all four.
And that's fine, in the sense we can now contact GW and ask them if they really meant for the rules to say that. I have no problem with that at all. But when nobody else on the planet actually plays the rule like that it becomes a bit tiresome to have to deal with a multi-post thread derailment that doesn't answer the actual question in favour of going off on an ego trip.
YMDC has, IMO, become pretty worthless as a rules resource because of BCB's antics. We can acknowledge poor rules writing without going on to insist that a nonsensical, literal approach to non-functional or extremely suspect rules is the only way to play. Most people, OP included, come to YMDC to get an answer to a specific query to allow them to actually get on with playing the game. Nothing from BCB's comments in this thread have really helped them with that. Given how sloppily the current 40k rules are written we have to accept that a strict RAW approach isn't going to allow us to arrive at a satisfactory answer in some situations. As long as that is acknowledged that's fine, and we can move on to trying to actually help people resolve the problems they have encountered.
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2018/06/01 14:37:41
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Fresh-Faced New User
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Doesn't the Drukhari player have to play AoV before you select the target though?
If they hold off until you've selected your target I'd imagine they've missed their opportunity to prevent it happening, as you've moved on a step from using the stratagem?
- Not saying you jump in and don't give them a chance to use it but if you've used Oathbreaker Stratagem, and they're intentionally holding off to see who the target is, they lose their opportunity to interrupt it as soon as you declare, right?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/01 14:46:37
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2018/06/01 14:47:16
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BaconCatBug wrote:That's not a yes or no answer.
Here is the full rule, courtesy of the Battle Primer. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next
Please show me in the paragraph where you are given permission to fire only some of your weapons. I have already pointed out the permission to fire all your weapons at one target, or all your weapons at different targets.
Where it says or you can shoot each at a different enemy unit. It doesn't give you permission to fire more than one weapon at a unit while firing at multiple units; by RAW that means you either fire all weapons at one unit or one weapon each at different units. If you have more weapons than enemy units to target, by RAW you can't fire all the weapons as you can only fire one weapon at each different unit.
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2018/06/01 15:34:20
Subject: Agents of Vect vs Oathbreaker Guidance System
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Been Around the Block
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shakul wrote:Doesn't the Drukhari player have to play AoV before you select the target though?
If they hold off until you've selected your target I'd imagine they've missed their opportunity to prevent it happening, as you've moved on a step from using the stratagem?
- Not saying you jump in and don't give them a chance to use it but if you've used Oathbreaker Stratagem, and they're intentionally holding off to see who the target is, they lose their opportunity to interrupt it as soon as you declare, right?
The AoV strat says you use it after an opponent uses a stratagem. The way I see it the knights player declares that they are using OGS and the Drukhari player has to declare immediately that they are using AoV, before the knights player would get a chance to pick a target for the missile.
My question was whether or not the knights player was still obligated to fire the missile. That was before someone on here reminded me that all weapons must be fired as per pg 179 of main rule book,
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