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Do different Space Marine Chapters count for the Rule of Three?

You're still using the same datasheets. The Rule of 3 would still apply (if you're playing in games where they're using it) no matter how many chapters you are dividing the units up into.

Is a Grey Knights Storm Hawk the same DataSheet as a Space Marine Storm Hawk?

 doctortom wrote:
You're still using the same datasheets. The Rule of 3 would still apply (if you're playing in games where they're using it) no matter how many chapters you are dividing the units up into.

A highly disingenuous answer.

The true answer is we do not know to what extent a datasheet has to match to be considered the "Same" datasheet.

Is a Rhino with ULTRAMARINES the same as one with WHITE SCARS? Do they not match because they don't have the exact same keywords? Do they match because they both have <CHAPTER>? Or do they match because they are from the same book?

Is a Rhino with BLOOD ANGELS the same as one with ULTRAMARINES? Do they match because they both have the same name, or are they different because one has the ULTRAMARINES keyword and the other has BLOOD ANGELS? Or is it a case of them being in different books?

Samii wrote:
Is a Grey Knights Storm Hawk the same DataSheet as a Space Marine Storm Hawk?

We don't know for sure, because GW hasn't clarified it. It's up to the TO to decide. I would say no, they are not the same Datasheet, as they are found in different books and have different keywords. Remember that the Rule of 3 is a suggestion for Organised Play, not a matched play rule. If you're using it, you have to clear it up with the TO regardless.

Long previous thread here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/755349.page

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
You're still using the same datasheets. The Rule of 3 would still apply (if you're playing in games where they're using it) no matter how many chapters you are dividing the units up into.

A highly disingenuous answer.

The true answer is we do not know to what extent a datasheet has to match to be considered the "Same" datasheet.

Is a Rhino with ULTRAMARINES the same as one with WHITE SCARS? Do they not match because they don't have the exact same keywords? Do they match because they both have <CHAPTER>? Or do they match because they are from the same book?

Is a Rhino with BLOOD ANGELS the same as one with ULTRAMARINES? Do they match because they both have the same name, or are they different because one has the ULTRAMARINES keyword and the other has BLOOD ANGELS? Or is it a case of them being in different books?

Samii wrote:
Is a Grey Knights Storm Hawk the same DataSheet as a Space Marine Storm Hawk?

We don't know for sure, because GW hasn't clarified it. It's up to the TO to decide. I would say no, they are not the same Datasheet, as they are found in different books and have different keywords. Remember that the Rule of 3 is a suggestion for Organised Play, not a matched play rule. If you're using it, you have to clear it up with the TO regardless.

Not disingenuous at all. The Big FAQ has an entry that says for organized play "NUMBER OF TIMES EACH DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED*" , with the note that this doesn't apply to troops or dedicated transport. Obviously, tournament organizers will prove to be the ultimate authority on this, but claiming it's highly disingenuous to give that answer that it's the same datasheet is in and of itself a highly disingenous reply. He referred to different Space Marine Chapters, which unless you get into things like Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels, will come from Codex: Space Marines. You are still using the datasheets from that codex irregardless of what Chapter you are using. As there has been no statement that different chapters qualify as different datasheets, you are forced to go with the datasheets for Codex: SM as being the same for different Chapters. That's not "we have no way of knowing" at all. We have an answer that we need to go by unless there is a clarification issued (whether by GW or by tournament organizers). It's highly unusual to claim there's no RAW when there obviously is. It just appears that you don't like the RAW answer and don't have the Special Snowflake FAQ yet for you to deride even if it gives you the answer you want.

 doctortom wrote:
Not disingenuous at all. The Big FAQ has an entry that says for organized play "NUMBER OF TIMES EACH DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED*" , with the note that this doesn't apply to troops or dedicated transport. Obviously, tournament organizers will prove to be the ultimate authority on this, but claiming it's highly disingenuous to give that answer that it's the same datasheet is in and of itself a highly disingenous reply. He referred to different Space Marine Chapters, which unless you get into things like Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels, will come from Codex: Space Marines. You are still using the datasheets from that codex irregardless of what Chapter you are using. As there has been no statement that different chapters qualify as different datasheets, you are forced to go with the datasheets for Codex: SM as being the same for different Chapters. That's not "we have no way of knowing" at all. We have an answer that we need to go by unless there is a clarification issued (whether by GW or by tournament organizers). It's highly unusual to claim there's no RAW when there obviously is. It just appears that you don't like the RAW answer and don't have the Special Snowflake FAQ yet for you to deride even if it gives you the answer you want.

Gotta love the snarky attitude that would get me instantly suspended. If I didn't know better I'd think there were double standards afoot.

It is disingenuous because the RaW is not clear. Both definitions are legitimate and that is the reason why there is a problem.

You claim having the same name makes it the same datasheet. I disagree and say that datasheets must be identical word for word to be the same. We're both right, which is why GW needs to fix it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Not disingenuous at all. The Big FAQ has an entry that says for organized play "NUMBER OF TIMES EACH DATASHEET CAN BE INCLUDED*" , with the note that this doesn't apply to troops or dedicated transport. Obviously, tournament organizers will prove to be the ultimate authority on this, but claiming it's highly disingenuous to give that answer that it's the same datasheet is in and of itself a highly disingenous reply. He referred to different Space Marine Chapters, which unless you get into things like Deathwatch, Space Wolves, Dark Angels or Blood Angels, will come from Codex: Space Marines. You are still using the datasheets from that codex irregardless of what Chapter you are using. As there has been no statement that different chapters qualify as different datasheets, you are forced to go with the datasheets for Codex: SM as being the same for different Chapters. That's not "we have no way of knowing" at all. We have an answer that we need to go by unless there is a clarification issued (whether by GW or by tournament organizers). It's highly unusual to claim there's no RAW when there obviously is. It just appears that you don't like the RAW answer and don't have the Special Snowflake FAQ yet for you to deride even if it gives you the answer you want.

Gotta love the snarky attitude that would get me instantly suspended. If I didn't know better I'd think there were double standards afoot.

It is disingenuous because the RaW is not clear. Both definitions are legitimate and that is the reason why there is a problem.

You claim having the same name makes it the same datasheet. I disagree and say that datasheets must be identical word for word to be the same. We're both right, which is why GW needs to fix it.

If you don't like snark then don't be the first person making accusations of someone being disingenuous. If it bothers you so much to have someone use the same word in return then you should think twice about accusing someone of it in the first place. That coupled with you claiming we can't know how it works when there is a way it works by RAW now..

You say the RAW isn't clear. It doesn't say that a different chapter is treated as a different datasheet. That means you can't assume that you get to use it as a different datasheet if you change the chapter. It doesn't mean that we're both right; it means that the RAW as it stands now forces you to treat all chapters using the SM Codex as using the same datasheets no matter what Chapter Tactic the units have. It might not be what they intended, but that is how the RAW works for it right now.

If they want it working differently, they need to fix it, but honestly I disagree with you on them wanting to have different chapters as having different datasheets as someone could just have 3 detachments with 3 different chapters, and if what you claim worked out they could still spam more units (say, 3 units each of devastators for 9 units on the board) than normally allowed by the Rule of 3, thereby circumventing the rule by those shenanigans.

The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options. Same for Astra Militarum Regiments. Same for Craftworlds. Etc. Etc.

However, a Dark Angels Devastator squad uses a different Datasheet to a Codex Marines one. So that one is different.

Inconsistent, but that’s how the RAW of it is just now. GW need feedback on this rule so they can finalise it in a way that doesn’t have such quirks. To the FAQ email hotline...

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options. Same for Astra Militarum Regiments. Same for Craftworlds. Etc. Etc.

However, a Dark Angels Devastator squad uses a different Datasheet to a Codex Marines one. So that one is different.

Inconsistent, but that’s how the RAW of it is just now. GW need feedback on this rule so they can finalise it in a way that doesn’t have such quirks. To the FAQ email hotline...

Agreed, a DA Devastator squad uses a different Datasheet than Codex Marines, even if it's inconsistent with RAI. I imagine some interesting feedback about this to GW.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

I think that’s the intent and can imagine it’s how it will shake out. Send your input to GW as well. The more data they get the better.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

But the data sheet has <Chapter> on it. The unit you "create" from it has Ultramarines or Iron Hands replacing that, but the data sheet you use as the "blueprint" doesn't change.

Otherwise a Predator with an Autocannon and a predator with Twin Lascannons wouldn't be the same datasheet either, I think.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

But the data sheet has <Chapter> on it. The unit you "create" from it has Ultramarines or Iron Hands replacing that, but the data sheet you use as the "blueprint" doesn't change.

Otherwise a Predator with an Autocannon and a predator with Twin Lascannons wouldn't be the same datasheet either, I think.

It would be, because the Datasheet would still be the same. The question that is the crux of the issue is does a unit in game use the datasheet with <CHAPTER> or ULTRAMARINES.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

But the data sheet has <Chapter> on it. The unit you "create" from it has Ultramarines or Iron Hands replacing that, but the data sheet you use as the "blueprint" doesn't change.

Otherwise a Predator with an Autocannon and a predator with Twin Lascannons wouldn't be the same datasheet either, I think.

It would be, because the Datasheet would still be the same. The question that is the crux of the issue is does a unit in game use the datasheet with <CHAPTER> or ULTRAMARINES.

You are still looking at the one datasheet on page X in codex Space Marines regardless of chapter keywords. The other rules in the codex tell you how to interact with the <CHAPTER> keyword. That's your answer.

Nothing ambiguous about the rules here.

JakeSiren wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The same Datasheet is the same Datasheet, no matter which optional keyword you choose if it has options.

I disagree.

A data sheet that has "Ultramarines" is not the same datasheet as one that has "Iron Hands" as those two units (and datasheets) have different rules.

But the data sheet has <Chapter> on it. The unit you "create" from it has Ultramarines or Iron Hands replacing that, but the data sheet you use as the "blueprint" doesn't change.

Otherwise a Predator with an Autocannon and a predator with Twin Lascannons wouldn't be the same datasheet either, I think.

It would be, because the Datasheet would still be the same. The question that is the crux of the issue is does a unit in game use the datasheet with <CHAPTER> or ULTRAMARINES.

You are still looking at the one datasheet on page X in codex Space Marines regardless of chapter keywords. The other rules in the codex tell you how to interact with the <CHAPTER> keyword. That's your answer.

Nothing ambiguous about the rules here.

Exactly - that was my point. It's still the same datasheet, it doesn't matter what weapon or chapter options you choose.

GW made this recommendation to prevent over-spamming a given unit. Being able to do so by changing the chapter/craftworld/whatever would defeat the purpose.
In any case, they're recommendations to tournament organizers. So if you attend a tournament, just ask the person in charge. If you just play games with your group, then it's up to you to clarify the rule either way, and to me the RAI is pretty clear.

The way I see it, the Datasheet is the actual printed item you use to build your units. It doesn't magically change whether you play Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines, or any other chapter - that doesn't have its own Codex (yet) - you can think of. You set up your models, and declare that they are using the Imperial Fists (or Salamanders, or Ultramarines, etc) chapter traits.

This differs from, for example, the Blood Angels or Dark Angels, as they have their own Codex, with their own versions of the Datasheets. Their books actually already provide the replacement for the <CHAPTER> keyword. These Datasheets are in a different book altogether. So to me (though I am far from any authority here, just reading something one way) the Datasheet for an Imperial Fists Tactical Squad is identical to that of a Raven Guard Tactical Squad, and it would be identical to that of a Guys-From-Up-Above Tactical Squad (as long as you used the Codex Adeptus Astartes - Space Marines for them). But this is different from, say, a Blood Angels Tactical Squad. Just look at the printed material you used to build that unit with.

Now that is my interpretation of the RAW situation. I wouldn't know the RAI of it, as I am not one of the designers or rules gurus from GW itself.
I do understand the other side of the coin though, as different Chapter Tacticts actually provide different special rules. But to me, those rules come from a different section of the book - not the Datasheet itself - and are only applied after you built your army, found an opponent, set them up, and then declared your chapter.