Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Baneblade has the "Steel Behemoth" rule:

This model does not suffer the penalty to its hit rolls for moving and firing Heavy weapons. This model can Fall Back in the Movement phase and still shoot and/or charge during its turn. It can, except when firing Overwatch, also still fire its weapons if enemy units are within 1" of it (but only its twin heavy bolter or twin heavy flamer can target units that are within 1" of it – its other guns must target other units). In addition, this model only gains a bonus to its save in cover if at least half the model is obscured from the firer.

What happens if I have a baneblade and a Lemun Russ nearby. A unit of Cultist charges both. On my turn I don't disengage, so the cultists are engaged with both the baneblade and the Lemun russ. Can the baneblade target the cultists with its twin heavy bolters?

Yes.

You cannot target an enemy unit that is within 1" of a friendly model though. (step 2 of shooting phase) So no; the Baneblade's rule only exempts itself, not other friendly units.

Though I'd probably allow it, as it makes sense.

 Kcalehc wrote:
You cannot target an enemy unit that is within 1" of a friendly model though. (step 2 of shooting phase) So no; the Baneblade's rule only exempts itself, not other friendly units.

This is correct. You only have permission to shoot units within 1" of yourself, not units within 1" of another friendly model.

I will never understand when one rule trumps another. There are enemy models within 1" of my baneblade. Rule says I can shoot them. But another rule forbids shooting at them because these enemy models are also within 1" of a friendly model.

 p5freak wrote:
I will never understand when one rule trumps another. There are enemy models within 1" of my baneblade. Rule says I can shoot them. But another rule forbids shooting at them because these enemy models are also within 1" of a friendly model.

You have permission to shoot the models within in inch of you which overrides the normal rules which say you cannot. However you do not have any rule that overrides that rule that says you can't shoot at enemies within 1 inch of a friendly model. You do not have permission to fire at a unit within an inch of another friendly unit. If you fire at the unit engaged with you and the leman russ you are breaking the rules. Typically I have found that if you have 5000 rules that say you can do something, but one rule saying you can't then the cant wins out unless overridden by one of permissions.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
I will never understand when one rule trumps another. There are enemy models within 1" of my baneblade. Rule says I can shoot them. But another rule forbids shooting at them because these enemy models are also within 1" of a friendly model.

You have permission to shoot the models within in inch of you which overrides the normal rules which say you cannot. However you do not have any rule that overrides that rule that says you can't shoot at enemies within 1 inch of a friendly model. You do not have permission to fire at a unit within an inch of another friendly unit. If you fire at the unit engaged with you and the leman russ you are breaking the rules. Typically I have found that if you have 5000 rules that say you can do something, but one rule saying you can't then the cant wins out unless overridden by one of permissions.

And where in the rules does it say that the rule that says i cant overrides the rule that i can ? I see no priority system in the rules, both rules are on the same level, so to speak. One says i can, the other i cant.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
You cannot target an enemy unit that is within 1" of a friendly model though. (step 2 of shooting phase) So no; the Baneblade's rule only exempts itself, not other friendly units.

This is correct. You only have permission to shoot units within 1" of yourself, not units within 1" of another friendly model.

Agreed.

So you can't. It's not an OR gate, it's an AND gate.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So you can't. It's not an OR gate, it's an AND gate.

Citation please.

 p5freak wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So you can't. It's not an OR gate, it's an AND gate.

Citation please.

Simple logic.

You have two rules, one saying you can do something, one saying you can't.

Which action breaks no rules?

Take pistols for example, they specifically override both rules in the description: (ignoring BCB's explanation of why they can't fire at all)

"A model can fire a pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, ...(snip)... the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

The Baneblade has no such qualifier, and is not firing pistols, so does not override the blanket restriction on firing at units also within 1" of another friendly; only those within 1" of itself alone.

Why would it not override both rules? There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit. There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of the firing unit. Steel behemoth states that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself. To me it seems that the steel behemoth rule overrides both. It doesn't make an exception by saying that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself, but not if it is also within 1" of another friendly unit

Within 1" of itself means within 1" of itself regardless of any other circumstances. Remember, the most specific rule overrides less specific rules. It is how pistols and assault weapons function.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Take pistols for example, they specifically override both rules in the description: (ignoring BCB's explanation of why they can't fire at all)

"A model can fire a pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, ...(snip)... the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

The Baneblade has no such qualifier, and is not firing pistols, so does not override the blanket restriction on firing at units also within 1" of another friendly; only those within 1" of itself alone.

Which perfectly illustrates my point. The pistol rules specifically state that it overrides one rule, but NOT the other. The steel behemoth rule gives carte blanche without getting into specifics.

I take the steel behemoth rule to mean, you can shoot enemy units within one inch of the firing baneblade. Using the "specific rule overrides the less specific rule" I would ignore any less specific rule that disallowed it, including the rule that states that you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit, if that enemy unit was also within 1" of the firing baneblade.

w1zard wrote:
Why would it not override both rules? There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit. There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of the firing unit. Steel behemoth states that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself. To me it seems that the steel behemoth rule overrides both. It doesn't make an exception by saying that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself, but not if it is also within 1" of another friendly unit

Within 1" of itself means within 1" of itself regardless of any other circumstances. Remember, the most specific rule overrides less specific rules. It is how pistols and assault weapons function.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Take pistols for example, they specifically override both rules in the description: (ignoring BCB's explanation of why they can't fire at all)

"A model can fire a pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, ...(snip)... the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

The Baneblade has no such qualifier, and is not firing pistols, so does not override the blanket restriction on firing at units also within 1" of another friendly; only those within 1" of itself alone.

Which perfectly illustrates my point. The pistol rules specifically state that it overrides one rule, but NOT the other. The steel behemoth rule gives carte blanche without getting into specifics.

I take the steel behemoth rule to mean, you can shoot enemy units within one inch of the firing baneblade. Using the "specific rule overrides the less specific rule" I would ignore any less specific rule that disallowed it, including the rule that states that you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit, if that enemy unit was also within 1" of the firing baneblade.

It does not override the rule saying you can't fire at a unit within 1 inch of a friendly unit. It gives specific permission to override the rule in the case of shooting at a unit within 1 inch of yourself, but if you fire at that unit within 1 inch of you and another friendly model then you are shooting at a unit within 1 inch of another friendly model which you do not have permission to do thus are breaking the rules.

w1zard wrote:
Why would it not override both rules? There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit. There is a rule stating you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of the firing unit. Steel behemoth states that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself. To me it seems that the steel behemoth rule overrides both. It doesn't make an exception by saying that you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of itself, but not if it is also within 1" of another friendly unit

Within 1" of itself means within 1" of itself regardless of any other circumstances. Remember, the most specific rule overrides less specific rules. It is how pistols and assault weapons function.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Take pistols for example, they specifically override both rules in the description: (ignoring BCB's explanation of why they can't fire at all)

"A model can fire a pistol if there are enemy units within 1" of its own unit, ...(snip)... the model can shoot its pistol even if other friendly units are within 1" of the same enemy unit."

The Baneblade has no such qualifier, and is not firing pistols, so does not override the blanket restriction on firing at units also within 1" of another friendly; only those within 1" of itself alone.

Which perfectly illustrates my point. The pistol rules specifically state that it overrides one rule, but NOT the other. The steel behemoth rule gives carte blanche without getting into specifics.

I take the steel behemoth rule to mean, you can shoot enemy units within one inch of the firing baneblade. Using the "specific rule overrides the less specific rule" I would ignore any less specific rule that disallowed it, including the rule that states that you cannot shoot an enemy unit within 1" of a friendly unit, if that enemy unit was also within 1" of the firing baneblade.

Pistols explicitly state they override both rules (1" of self AND 1" of other). Steel behemoth explicitly states it overrides one rule (1" of self, it does not mention 1" of other), thus the other still applies.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Pistols explicitly state they override both rules (1" of self AND 1" of other). Steel behemoth explicitly states it overrides one rule (1" of self, it does not mention 1" of other), thus the other still applies.

I think you are misunderstanding. My point is, the steel behemoth rule states that you can shoot at a unit within 1" of the firing baneblade, period end of sentence. It doesn't matter if there is another rule, or multiple rules against edge case scenarios, the steel behemoth rules give carte blanche to ignore all of them because it says you CAN without going into specifics. The pistol rule specifically states it ignores one rule, but not another and is therefore elucidated.

So a model with the steel behemoth rule can fire a (possibly hypothetical) weapon with a minimum range of 24" at a unit 1" away?

The rule states that you can "still fire its weapons if enemy units are within an inch, but only its heavy bolters or flamers can target models within an inch of it - it's other weapons must fire at different targets.

The permission part of the rule only gives you the ability to fire if you're within an inch. The part about shooting into your own combat is restrictive. You do not gain the ability to target a unit that is within 1" of another friendly model.

Being able to fire and being able to select a unit as a target are two distinct rules. For another example see the character rule, you wouldn't be able to target a character an inch away if another unit was in base contact. Because you're only lifting one restriction.

 Perth wrote:
The permission part of the rule only gives you the ability to fire if you're within an inch. The part about shooting into your own combat is restrictive. You do not gain the ability to target a unit that is within 1" of another friendly model.

I don't see it that way at all. The steel behemoth rule states that I can fire at an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade. A unit that is within 1" of the firing baneblade and also within 1" of a LRBT is still within 1" of the firing baneblade and can thus still be fired at. Being within 1" of the firing baneblade is the ONLY qualifier.

If they wanted to do it your way they should have had the rule state something like "you can fire at an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade, unless it is also within 1" of another friendly unit" similar to the pistol rule. The fact that they were not specific as with the pistol rule is evidence to me that the only intended qualifying condition is simply being within 1" of the firing baneblade.

Let me put it this way, if there was a rule that said "you can't have ice cream" and another rule that said "you don't have any money" and third rule were to suddenly say "you can pick out any ice cream flavor you like and you will receive a container of it" (without specifying that you had to pay for it), to suggest that you can't have your ice cream container because you don't have the money to pay for it is pretty ridiculous.

w1zard wrote:

 Perth wrote:
The permission part of the rule only gives you the ability to fire if you're within an inch. The part about shooting into your own combat is restrictive. You do not gain the ability to target a unit that is within 1" of another friendly model.

I don't see it that way at all. The steel behemoth rule states that I can fire at an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade. A unit that is within 1" of the firing baneblade and also within 1" of a LRBT is still within 1" of the firing baneblade and can thus still be fired at. Being within 1" of the firing baneblade is the ONLY qualifier.

If they wanted to do it your way they should have had the rule state something like "you can fire at an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade, unless it is also within 1" of another friendly unit" similar to the pistol rule. The fact that they were not specific as with the pistol rule is evidence to me that the only intended qualifying condition is simply being within 1" of the firing baneblade.

Let me put it this way, if there was a rule that said "you can't have ice cream" and another rule that said "you don't have any money" and third rule were to suddenly say "you can pick out any ice cream flavor you like and you will receive a container of it" (without specifying that you had to pay for it), to suggest that you can't have your ice cream container because you don't have the money to pay for it is pretty ridiculous.

Changing the example changes the resolution. The ice cream thing is unhelpful.

There’s no need to state that a rule doesn’t override another rule tbh. They state what it overrides and everything else still applies. If nothing tells you it can ignore a certain condition then it can’t.

w1zard wrote:
... they should have had the rule state something like "you can fire at an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade, unless it is also within 1" of another friendly unit" similar to the pistol rule. The fact that they were not specific as with the pistol rule is evidence to me that the only intended qualifying condition is simply being within 1" of the firing baneblade.

They do not need to add "unless it is also within 1" of another friendly unit" because the base rules already say this.

You need a rule that gives permission to ignore this specific restriction. If you do not have specific permission then you can not ignore the restriction.

 Peregrine wrote:
So a model with the steel behemoth rule can fire a (possibly hypothetical) weapon with a minimum range of 24" at a unit 1" away?

Minimum ranges don't work anyway.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So a model with the steel behemoth rule can fire a (possibly hypothetical) weapon with a minimum range of 24" at a unit 1" away?

Minimum ranges don't work anyway.

They work fine for everyone but you, and this is OT anyway. Keep it in your sig and stay on topic.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So a model with the steel behemoth rule can fire a (possibly hypothetical) weapon with a minimum range of 24" at a unit 1" away?

Minimum ranges don't work anyway.

They work fine for everyone but you, and this is OT anyway. Keep it in your sig and stay on topic.

I am on topic. He proposed a hypothetical, I showed his hypothetical doesn't work the way he assumed it would.

Another example of this is the Tyranid Sporocyst. It can shoot even if enemies are within 1" of it, but it can't shoot at units that are within 1" of enemy units, so it can't shoot at the units it is within 1" of.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You need a rule that gives permission to ignore this specific restriction. If you do not have specific permission then you can not ignore the restriction.

You don't have a rule that overrides that specific restriction, but you do have a rule that gives you a blanket override on restrictions. Steel Behemoth says you can shoot an enemy unit within 1" of the firing baneblade. Period, end of sentence. Again, I think this gives carte blanche to override any rule that would normally prevent you from doing this, including the rule that states that you cannot shoot a target within 1" of another friendly model.

If you have a FAQ that supports your point of view or can show me a similar ruling, I would be more inclined to consider your argument that all rules have to be specifically overrided instead of blanket overrided.

But to me, "a baneblade can shoot at enemy units within 1" of itself" is pretty plain language and makes no mention about what to do if said enemy unit is also within 1" of a friendly model.

Let me give a better example then the ice cream one. Let us say A, B, are C were arbitrary actions. In order to perform C you needed to do A and B as well.

Rule 1: You cannot do A.
Rule 2: You cannot do B.
Thus, because you cannot do both A or B, you cannot do C because A and B are necessary parts of C.

New rule: In X circumstance, you can do both A and C.

Since B is a necessary part of C, in my mind, this new rule is giving you permission to ignore Rule 2 because it says you can perform C without going into specifics. Even though it doesn't explicitly state that you can perform B, it follows logically because B is a necessary part of C.

w1zard wrote:
...but you do have a rule that gives you a blanket override on restrictions. .

No, you really don't

That is not how the rules work.

You need specific permission to over ride a restriction.

Can't trumps must/can.

If a rule allows you to charge after advancing, and a rule restricts you from charging after you have shot your pistols, then if you advance then shoot your pistols, you need a rule over-riding the pistol rule as the blanket "can charge after advancing" does not help.

 DeathReaper wrote:

If a rule allows you to charge after advancing, and a rule restricts you from charging after you have shot your pistols, then if you advance then shoot your pistols, you need a rule over-riding the pistol rule as the blanket "can charge after advancing" does not help.

Agreed, but your analogy isn't entirely accurate.

If a rule allows you to charge after advancing, and a rule restricts you from charging with a unit that has moved over 1" this turn, I'd say that you can safely ignore the 1" rule because advancing necessitates moving at LEAST 1".

Actually, that's not correct. Advance just added 1d6 to an unit's Move Characteristic for that turn's move. You can declare a unit will Advance, but then move a model 0.5".

 alextroy wrote:
Actually, that's not correct. Advance just added 1d6 to an unit's Move Characteristic for that turn's move. You can declare a unit will Advance, but then move a model 0.5".

Ah fair enough, I thought that advancing made you move another 1d6" in any direction. But, I hope I illustrated my point through that analogy sufficiently.

Regardless, I really think this issue could use with a FAQ, because the steel behemoth rule doesn't cover what to do in this scenario like the pistol rule does.