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Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





Something that came up in the Necron tactics thread;

If you are +1 to hit and you fire in overwatch, do you get any special effects (more specfically, Tesla) on rolls of a 5 or a 6? And likewise, are any - to hit modifiers meaning you cannot get Tesla on Overwatch?

General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the rules say that a roll of a 6 always hit (so no immune to ranged fire, like you can get in the shooting phase with sufficiënt - to hit modifiers) however, it isn’t clear whether or not any modifiers might affect special effects on a roll of 5 or 6.

Example:

A telsa Carabine fired in overwatch. He rolls a 5 to hit and misses. However, he has +1 to hit from MWBD.
So the shot misses (not a roll of a 6 in overwatch) however, the roll of a 5 becomes a 6 and thus proccs tesla. It does not ‘hit’ but it proccs Tesla, resulting in the two bonus hits from Tesla but not the actual hit roll.

Is this true or not?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/06/13 07:32:59


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

Doctoralex wrote:
Something that came up in the Necron tactics thread;

If you are +1 to hit and you fire in overwatch, do you get any special effects (more specfically, Tesla) on rolls of a 5 or a 6? And likewise, are any - to hit modifiers meaning you cannot get Tesla on Overwatch?

General Handbook:
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll,irrespective of the firing model’s Ballistic Skill or any modifiers.

So the rules say that a roll of a 6 always hit (so no immune to ranged fire, like you can get in the shooting phase with sufficiënt - to hit modifiers) however, it isn’t clear whether or not any modifiers might affect special effects on a roll of 5 or 6.

Example:

A telsa Carabine fired in overwatch. He rolls a 5 to hit, but has +1 to hit thanks to MWBD.
So the shot misses (not a roll of a 6 in overwatch) however, the roll of a 5 becomes a 6 and thus proccs tesla.

Is this true or not?


Not true. a 5 is a miss and can not get 3 hits instead of 1 on overwatch as a 5 does not hit in the first place.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

Agreed.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





Actually, you do get the tesla hits. It doesn't matter that it misses, tesla doesn't care about that. You get Tesla for the same reason that you get slain by a Plasma Gun on a 2 with -1 to hit in Overwatch. The modifiers still apply, they just don't determine whether you hit or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 10:11:02


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 p5freak wrote:
No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
No, it isn't. Show me where it says to ignore modifiers in overwatch? I'll save you the trouble, because you can't. Yes, you don't take into account modifiers when determining if you hit, but that doesn't stop modifiers from applying. Shooting overcharged plasma at something with -1 to hit causes the Plasma to explode on a 1 or 2, even in overwatch.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 11:47:28


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





BCB is right. "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers".

In other words, those modifiers still do happen, they just don't normally count for anything. If you get something that goes off on a roll of 1 or 6 or whatever, you still factor in those modifiers to see if those things do or don't happen. I don't have the Necron book, but if Tesla says that a roll of 6 or more to hit generates 3 hits instead of 1, then Tesla won't work, because it didn't hit (there's no 1 hit to be replaced with 3 hits). If Tesla says that a to-hit roll of 6 or more generates 2 additional hits, then it does work, because the 6 still happened, it was just a modified 6.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 12:04:54


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Repentia Mistress




Tacoma, WA, USA

I'm with Yarium. If it converts Hits, no dice. If it provides additional Hits, you are good to go.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Yep, as above. As silly as it sounds, a shot can miss but still provide additional hits. Because additional hits does not require any initial hits, and you only ignore modifiers for one SPECIFIC reason.
   
Made in de
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine





Germany

As i already said Tesla does 3 hits instead of 1 on a hit roll of 6+. So the 5 doesnt hit, no 1 hit, no 3 hits, tesla doesnt trigger.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 13:44:56


 
   
Made in ar
Fresh-Faced New User





the rule is
Each hit roll of 6+ with this weapon causes 3 hits instead
of 1.
is no to the original ask.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
No, the +1 to hit is ignored for overwatch. You can't score 3 hits instead of 1 when you don't get the 1 hit on a 5.
No, it isn't. Show me where it says to ignore modifiers in overwatch? I'll save you the trouble, because you can't. Yes, you don't take into account modifiers when determining if you hit, but that doesn't stop modifiers from applying. Shooting overcharged plasma at something with -1 to hit causes the Plasma to explode on a 1 or 2, even in overwatch.


The rule for Tesla is:

Each hit roll of a 6+ counts as 3 hits instead of 1.


So yea, with +1 to hit on that unit they would get a Tesla procc on a 5, but no actual hit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 13:56:07


 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 DeathReaper wrote:
If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).
This is not true in the slightest. Please show me in the rulebook where it says that. The rules only say your normal attacks hit on a 6, ignoring modifiers for the purposes of seeing if you hit. It doesn't prevent hits from coming from elsewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:04:08


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 DeathReaper wrote:
If you are generating hits on anything but a 6 for overwatch, you have broken the rules. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).
This is not true in the slightest.

Except it is, overwatch is very specific with its rules.
Please show me in the rulebook where it says that.

Quite literally the rules for overwatch "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers".

a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers is what disallows a 5 from hitting.

The rules only say your normal attacks hit on a 6, ignoring modifiers for the purposes of seeing if you hit. It doesn't prevent hits from coming from elsewhere.
It quite literally does. you need to roll a 6 to hit. if you roll a 5 you miss and can not hit on a 5 at all. (Rules that specifically add to overwatch excluded, as usual).

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





But the tesla rule DOES NOT CARE if you hit or not. You get 3 hits instead of 1, but it doesn't care if the hit actually hits.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade




Extrapolating from the Harlequins FAQ, I would believe that the extra hits are procced, but they all miss.

Q: How does the Riddle-smiths Masque Form interact
with abilities that generate additional attacks or score
additional hits?
A: If a unit has an ability that generates extra attacks on
a roll that exactly matches the result of a Riddle-smiths
roll, the extra attack is generated. Note that the original
attack still misses, and if the hit roll for the extra attack
also matches the result of the Riddle-smiths roll, it also
misses. Likewise, if a weapon has an ability that scores
additional hits on a roll that exactly matches the result
of a Riddle-smiths roll, it would score those additional
hits, but they’d all miss.


The bolded is what I'm extrapolating from - essentially this makes me believe that since you need a 6 on the dice to hit in overwatch, a 5 with a +1 will generate the hits, but since the roll itself was a 5, they would all be misses.

Riddlesmiths essentially has you roll 2 dice at the start of the fight phase and discard the higher, any hit roll from an enemy that matches the remaining dice is a miss.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 14:22:48


 
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





So we can all agree that GW has once again ruined everything forever with contradictory Special Snowflake FAQs and poor rules writing, and leave it at "Decide Pre-Game like 99% of the game because who wants clear and concise rules? Nerds and Gary No-Fun that's who!"

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





Texas

Going the other direction. If you roll a 6 in overwatch with Tesla and have a -1 to hit. What happens? 1 Regular hit for the 6 since it always hits, but no Tesla extra hits? Thats the way I read it.

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Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 Dynas wrote:
Going the other direction. If you roll a 6 in overwatch with Tesla and have a -1 to hit. What happens? 1 Regular hit for the 6 since it always hits, but no Tesla extra hits? Thats the way I read it.
Correct. The result of the dice is 6 for the purposes of deciding if you hit overwatch or not, because overwatch ignores those modifiers. However, the result of the dice for all other purposes is still 5, so no tesla for you.

Same way that if you had -1 to hit with Overcharged plasma, you'd overheat on a 1 or 2, and if you had -5 to hit on an Overcharged plasma, you'd still hit on a 6, but would always explode.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







You hit on 6s regardless of modifiers, then look up modifiers to parse the critical statement.
   
Made in gb
Gargantuan Gargant





 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; and Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect.
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.


Your analogy makes no sense without further explanation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 16:12:11


 
   
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 BaconCatBug wrote:
 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.
By that logic I can't use Smoke Launchers after advancing, which is not the case.


I'm not sure if that's the case. I understand the reference to the FAQ for Smoke Launchers, but that's a question of whether you can substitute one action for another, not one result for another. That's asking "I can do Y instead of X, but I can't do X, so can I do Y?" and the answer was "yes". This is "When X happens, Y happens instead, but X didn't happen. Can Y still happen?", which my intuition tells me the answer to which is "no".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/13 16:22:41


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
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 Yarium wrote:
This is "When X happens, Y happens instead, but X didn't happen. Can Y still happen?", which my intuition tells me the answer to which is "no".


The smoke launcher FAQ addresses just that question. Can I use my smoke launchers when I'm not allowed to shoot? (Smoke launchers are used instead of shooting) The designers said "yes, you can"
   
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 doctortom wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The rules don't care if the original didn't happen though. We even have precedent for using Smoke Launchers when you can't shoot, though I will be the first to admit that the FAQ is narrow in scope.


Actually the rules do care if the original didn't happen. That's why it says 3 hits instead of 1; you replace the original 1 with 3 hits. If it was worded only that you get 2 additional hits on a roll of 6+, then I would agree that it doesn't care about the original hit. Here, though, it's an explicit statement of substitution for the original hit. If you don't have an original hit, there's nothing to substitute the 3 hits for.

EXACTLY - it's says instead of 1 - not instead of 0. You have to meet the requirements of instead of 1 for the additional hits to count.

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Ok so what about the flipside then? What if (in the example of Tesla), you had a -1 modifier in Overwatch. A roll of 6 would hit, but with the -1 it turns into a 5 so the natural 6 hits due to Overwatch, but doesn't generate the 3 hits as per Tesla?
   
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Don't worry guys I am pretty sure these hit on 6's rules are going to start looking like the Imperial knights Endless furry relic. It specifically states that UNMODIFIED hit rolls of 6 - generate additional hits. I'd recommend playing with all these types of weapons in this way because it actually makes a lot more sense.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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