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 Monkeysloth wrote:
82$ production costs for a game that will be sold 79$.

So it's not profitable... for the first print run. If the game is a success (the 10k boxes sold), they will be able to run a second kickstarter, and this time : the first 4 cost line disappear.

Mythic Battle : the second print run with $1,1M was way more profitable than the first one with $2,6M.

That's about right - breakeven on the initial run, and then make some real money on the second!

Kingdom Death : Monster lost money on the initial run, probably -10% or so, but the second run was vastly larger and significantly more profitable due to larger scale and development costs already paid for.
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... wait, these are RESIN miniatures?

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The same boardgame plastic as they've used for their other stuff as far as I know

Wait, regular plastic? No stretch goals? for $100 shipped?

Yeah, I'm out.

 Col Hammer wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Wait, regular plastic? No stretch goals? for $100 shipped?

Yeah, I'm out.

Stretch goals are meaningless entertainment anyway. In this kickstarter they are already included in the box right from the start.

A grand total of 35 PVC minis for $100 is a pretty poor value per mini on KS, as can be seen from the cost breakdown - all of the production went into the cardboard. Without SGs to bump the value it's just not worth $100. For what little they're offering, this would have to be under $50 shipped.

With a true value of only $50, and a 2nd printing in the wings, I wouldn't even expect that I could get my money if the gameplay didn't deliver for me and my group.
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 Gallahad wrote:
If you don't have the game, you really should consider this one. It is a great asymmetrical dungeon crawler.

Hold on, ALL dungeon crawlers are asymmetrical, including Zombicide and Mice & Mystics. What makes this one "great"?

ced1106 wrote:
> What makes this one "great"?

Here ya go! : https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36932/claustrophobia/forums/63

OK, but the top result for "Why I got rid of Claustrophobia" isn't really selling me on the game.

FWIW, I played a lot of Super Dungeon Explore as an asymmetrical 1v1 game (it's labeled as a 1vM game, but plays considerably better "heads up" 1v1).

The real issue is that my group wasn't excited over it

I'm not understanding how this isn't a dungeon crawler.

What, specifically, makes this not a dungeon crawler? Is it that it's a 1v1 game? Are there no co-op dungeon crawlers?

Oh, I'm pretty clear on the conceptual distinction between "dungeon crawler" and "skirmish game". Coming from someone who played 1E D&D, it seems to me that you provide a very unsatisfying and inaccurate description of a "dungeon crawler".

A dungeon crawler is:
* smallish party of high-detail heroes
* massed enemies, culminating in a boss fight
* randomized/arbitrary dungeon

Descent is irrelevant, as even back in 1E, a "Killer DM" could be a ruthless adversary limited only by the rules that generate an encounter.

Back in 1E, players could certainly play multiple characters, especially henchmen.

The number of players and the degree to which the DM opposes the players, and/or is automated, is not what defines a dungeon crawler.

At its core, Zombicide is definitely a dungeon crawler. Same with Space Hulk and the D&D games.

A "skirmish game", that's generally terminology for a small wargame where each figure represents 1 thing, for a 1:1 figure:thing ratio (unlike strategy games where a figure or block might represent 100s or 1000s).

Frostgrave is a skirmish game, like Infinity, Malifaux and Warhammer 40,000.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
* Not 1v1 (at least by design) or allow for more the one hero.

So psudo RPGs. If it doesn't have those last two it's a wargame.

I agree that the heroes should power-up by found gear and/or "levels", which I probably should have specified.

I still disagree with the 1v1 exclusion, though.
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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Dungeons have to be underground,

and for that real classic feel have at least one huge monster in a room it could not possibly get to given the entrance tunnels provided

Why can't the "dungeon" be the interior of a large building, a winding town, or HUUUGE spaceship?

The huge monster might have been brought in as a larva or baby, and fed and grown to monstrous proportions.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Not selling as quickly in the US so it's smart to move that product elsewhere.

Indeed. Thing is, in the US, we'rv become somewhat spoilt for choice for overproduced games, where 30-odd plastic minis isn't that compelling for $100 shipped when you have CMoN tossing nearly twice as much plastic at the backer for the same money. Granted CMoN's cardboard isn't as pretty, but you need more minis for the American dollars! Plus CMoN builds much better marketing hype, where this sort of straight presale doesn't have any of that "excitement".

And then there's timing. Within Kickstarter, they're going head to head with CMoN's Project: Elite (crossing Sedition Wars 2 / Zombicide: Invader). On top of that, you've got people like me anticipating a Kingdom Death Black Friday sale. And then there's general X-mas spend.

Failing to launch 3 months ago for guaranteed Xmas delivery was a huge failure.

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As far as visuals go, this is the all time gold standard:


Nothing like having a 4'x6' dining room table for gaming!

Only 8,000 / 10,000 sold with *plenty* available in the US!

I wonder if they're still going to pull the trigger on a 2nd printing.

There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

Mugaaz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid

So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.

Mugaaz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Mugaaz wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
There was a question whether it would sell out with >>10,000 unit demand. If so, it'd be a "hot" item and flippable for profit if you didn't like it.

However, with 2,000 units available (and growing!), it's better to wait for reviews and pick up a half-price copy on clearance. Let some other sucker pay the premium and take the risk on the first printing.

I agree with your first sentence. Second one really has no basis though. Say whatever negative things you want about KS, but almost all of these KS *exclusive* games or expansions sell for far in excess of the KS cost on the secondary market.

Not so. I own
* Sedition Wars, which cratered almost immediately.
* a smattering of Relic Knights, which I was lucky to part out and unload immediately after the first play.
* World of Smog: Rise of Moloch, which I cannot sell for what I paid

So don't say nonsense like that when it isn't true.

Theres tons of other examples to the contrary.

Perhaps, but you said "almost all", and that is NOT true.

This game will almost certainly NOT be something that flips up. It'll be a half price clearance item, at best. Huge stock far in excess of demand, and a poor value proposition in terms of minis / $$$. And that is why it's shedding backers like crazy:

KS is for building marketing hype, and KS is for FOMO.

* If your product is a premade presale, there's nothing to hype.

* If your product will have plenty available afterward, there's no FOMO.

* If your presale product won't make Christmas, then there's no pressure

KS was a bad idea for this project all around

At $80 shipped, it's a better value, but 35 models for $100 shipped is not a good value
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 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
but it's not meant to be a ks for minis, it's for a game

Then they should have gone direct to retail.

And the game itself should have been better.

As it is, they have a non-KS game on KS that is deflating any hype that might have been.

At the rate things are going, they're going from $800+k pledged down to finish under $700k:

 Mymearan wrote:
What do you mean “the game itself should’ve been better”?

Sorry, the game offer (i.e. what's inside the box) should have been better.