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So this is the most disgusting knight list I could come up with. I’m struggling to think of what could possibly answer this.

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [106 PL, 1997pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Heirlooms of the Household: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 348pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Armiger Helverins [18 PL, 348pts]
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber
. Armiger Helverin: Heavy stubber

Knight Castellan [30 PL, 593pts]: Heirloom: Cawl's Wrath, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Character: Warlord
. One Siegebreaker Cannon & Four Shieldbreaker Missiles: 4x Shieldbreaker Missile, Twin Siegebreaker Cannon

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber, Heirloom: The Banner Inviolate, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Warlord Trait: Landstrider
. Character: Exalted Court Member

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

So the plan is to have the helverin’s and Castellan sit in back, using ravens trait + the Gallents landstrider warlord trait to get where they can avoid danger. The Gallent’s meanwhile, run up and stomp things with 15 S 8 D3 damage attacks which hits on 2+ rerolling 1s. Finally Raven’s strategem is at its best on a Castellan. The one issue this list has is CP starvation. You will have to make tough decisions between full
Tilting, rotating ion shields, death griping or getting 2 turns of Raven stratagems (though full tilt helps this by being used after already knowing what your knight’s advance roll is.) While it may not be packing CP, this list hits like a ton of bricks and can take a beating in return. Only play this if you enjoy power fantasy’s more than friends.

Knights + IG cp farm.

With all the stratagems, they just outequipment, outshoot, outdefense and outscore "pure Knights" list.

Yeah, I'd drop a pair of Helverins or a Gallant in favor of an IG CP farm. It just works too well if you really want to lose all your friends.

I agree with the IG+Knights being the better build, but the problem is Eldar, you're going to struggle to hit them, and they have enough dakka+psychic buffs that they'll still be able to mulch a knight.

drbored wrote:
Yeah, I'd drop a pair of Helverins or a Gallant in favor of an IG CP farm. It just works too well if you really want to lose all your friends.

If he drops gallant then he basically gains only 2 CP(he gets 5 from IG bat but doesn't have 3CP from knight det anymore). If he then takes the warlord trait and heirloom to get more CP during game he needs to pay 4 CP more to get knight warlord traits and heirlooms(he has 2 of both requiring 3 CP versions rather than 1 CP versions) so starts game with -2 CP compared to now. Now he's 3+3-2=4 so he would have 2 plus IG regenerate+nick but with 2 start not that usefull...

So I would say gallant for IG CP farm is bad tradeoff. He can't even get 2 min bat's without dropping 3 pts from somewhere. Hard as even castellan is already the cheaper variant.

Not btw convinced list is even that tough. Castellan is nice but the bigger knights aren't all that uber knights for the cost(useful but not sure would they be leading edge choices for tournaments). Helverins shoot but still not that awesome for points and say good plaguebearer swarm will laugh at them. Gallants are decent BUT it's shooty game and those are h2h exclusive. Anything with chaff screens will shrug as they can't charge over infantry so lots of hard counters. Also due to non-scalability of warlord traits, heirlooms and strategems 1 gallant good, 2nd gallant lot worse than first one.

It's not bad but you need the CP farm, my lists are similar but a bit more competitive in my view against other armies (like Eldar etc)

Primaris Psyker
Tempestor Prime (KA,GS)
3x Scions

Castellan (Relic, Bulwark)
Crusader (Thermal)
Gallant
2x Helverins

Or swap one Helverin for a Culexus for more anti-psyker and add some upgrades.

Primaris Psyker
Tempestor Prime (KA,GS)
3x Scions

Castellan (Relic, Bulwark)
Crusader (RFBC, Stormpod)
Gallant (Ironpod)
1x Helverins
Culexus

8 CP after relic and trait for Castellan, add more relics as needed e.g. Gauntlet, Landstrider for gallant and so on.
Then as per default Raven strat for Castellan shooting, reserve scions for obj grabbing and protection, Full tilt gallant, deep strike Culexus etc.
This should give you a fighting chance against most opponents though Aeldari soup with Vect will still be super hard i'd reckon.

Thanks for all the reply’s guys! It seems like most advice here is to add an IG CP farm in place of some helverins, but I’m not sure that’s as optimal as some of you think for the following reasons
1) it will increase deployment drops. At the moment I have 5 drops in my army, which means I will pretty much always get +1 on who gets first turn. Adding the farm increases that to 9, meaning other low drop armies start beating me.

2) it gives targets for anti-infantry weapons and units/ allows easy kills. At the moment my list offers helverins as the easiest things to kill. Easier said than done as they will be hiding in the back and have 12 T7 3+ 5++ W. This will make it difficult for my opponents to get kills, something that’s important in ITC and pretty much guarantees me more kill points than my opponents. Adding an IG battlian gives my opponent easy kills that hurts me in this area

3) you all are underestimating helverins. I get the sense most think helverins are just cute extras that add a bit more firepower to a list.
I see them as the best unit in the codex. 3 D and R 60 is a huge deal, as it makes them able to threaten anything on the board. Moment 14 +D6 only further their usefulness, as it’s very easy to get them where they need to go. Combine this with their natural effectiveness against one meta boogie men (dark eldar vehicles) means that they are very strong in this meta. Play with them, and I think you’ll find them to be excellent. Dropping 2 hurts a lot.
4) I hate guard and wanted to keep this list pure (yeah I’m biased)

I agree guard is terrible at least the models hence why Scions for me since their design matches Knights.

Some thoughts:
Keep e.g. Scions off the board blocks early kills.
Add transports to reduce drops.
Since they cannot fall back basically anything getting in to melee with them turn 1/2 is a real showstopper so that needs to be considered at least.

X078 wrote:
I agree guard is terrible at least the models hence why Scions for me since their design matches Knights.

Some thoughts:
Keep e.g. Scions off the board blocks early kills.
Add transports to reduce drops.
Since they cannot fall back basically anything getting in to melee with them turn 1/2 is a real showstopper so that needs to be considered at least.

These are some good points, and I do like the look of your list. For me the question is it worth dropping the the 2 helverins for what is essentially command points and psychic stuff. It could be that it is, but I’m in the camp that doesn’t see this as a clear yes. Also for $$ I’d much rather buy a box of helverins than a bunch scions.

Salt donkey wrote:

X078 wrote:
I agree guard is terrible at least the models hence why Scions for me since their design matches Knights.

Some thoughts:
Keep e.g. Scions off the board blocks early kills.
Add transports to reduce drops.
Since they cannot fall back basically anything getting in to melee with them turn 1/2 is a real showstopper so that needs to be considered at least.

These are some good points, and I do like the look of your list. For me the question is it worth dropping the the 2 helverins for what is essentially command points and psychic stuff. It could be that it is, but I’m in the camp that doesn’t see this as a clear yes. Also for $$ I’d much rather buy a box of helverins than a bunch scions.

Right now, proxy and test is my advice. See if the added CP's helps your playstyle or not and vice versa.
I do agree too some extent on this and parts of me hope that GW FAQs away the possibility of using IG CP Battery as it is today. Mostly so i wont feel the need to include them as easy as it is now Still even without the CP battery some obsec screens are useful...

It's pretty nasty, but I think the following list:

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [27 PL, 480pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (2 Relics)

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [13 PL, 180pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [70 PL, 1324pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Character, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Ion Bulkward

++ Total: [110 PL, 1984pts] ++

This just includes Everything that I find disgusting in the game, which is why I love it.


Also to some of your earlier points:
1. It was shown in a thread a while ago that the +1 to roll and roll to seize almost balance each other out, IIRC the +1 to seize only gave you about a 2% increased chance to go first.

2. Perhaps, though that prevents those anti-infantry guns getting cheesy wounds off on your knights (could be the difference between hitting on a 3 or a 4 next turn) plus Guardsmen make Maelstorm objective grabbing so much easier and you can deny that anti-infantry fire through use of cover if you want.

3. Perhaps again, but to through your second point back at you, the Helverins make excellant S7/8 targets and unlike the Guard they can't hide and they aren't great objective grabbers and, unlike Guard, your opponant is unlikely to ignore them and let them do their thing.

4. We all hate Guard but you've got to make sacrifices if you want to be the holder of a "lose all your friends" list.

 mrhappyface wrote:
It's pretty nasty, but I think the following list:

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) [27 PL, 480pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Open the Vaults (2 Relics)

+ HQ +

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Eagle's Eye, Hurricane Bolter

Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [13 PL, 180pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Regimental Doctrine: Astra Millitarum

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Grand Strategist, Laspistol, Warlord

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [70 PL, 1324pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

[Reference] Warlord Traits (All)

Exalted Court: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait (-1CP)

Household Choice: House Hawkshroud, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 485pts]: Heavy stubber
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer
. Rapid-fire battle cannon w/ heavy stubber: Heavy stubber, Rapid-fire battle cannon

Knight Gallant [20 PL, 354pts]: Character, Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet, Ion Bulkward

++ Total: [110 PL, 1984pts] ++

This just includes Everything that I find disgusting in the game, which is why I love it.


Also to some of your earlier points:
1. It was shown in a thread a while ago that the +1 to roll and roll to seize almost balance each other out, IIRC the +1 to seize only gave you about a 2% increased chance to go first.

2. Perhaps, though that prevents those anti-infantry guns getting cheesy wounds off on your knights (could be the difference between hitting on a 3 or a 4 next turn) plus Guardsmen make Maelstorm objective grabbing so much easier and you can deny that anti-infantry fire through use of cover if you want.

3. Perhaps again, but to through your second point back at you, the Helverins make excellant S7/8 targets and unlike the Guard they can't hide and they aren't great objective grabbers and, unlike Guard, your opponant is unlikely to ignore them and let them do their thing.

4. We all hate Guard but you've got to make sacrifices if you want to be the holder of a "lose all your friends" list.

First I’m happy to say that any of these list will do a great job at losing friends. Also I’m always down to proxy, so of course I’ll test some
Of these out.

As far as points go

1) does that 2% include the +1 persons chance to seize? While variance does exist I have to say that out of my 40+ games with the rule the +1 has mattered a heck of more than 2%.
2) the main point is that a guard battalion adds easy kill points for anti infantry weapons . Take you captains hurricane bolters as example. Aginst a knight they average around 2 wounds at rapid fire range. They for sure wipe out a guard squad in cover (12 W on average ) meaning you don’t have to worry about getting your kill for the turn in ITC.
3) helverins are extremely difficult to kill as their high range means they can hang out at back of the board and still fire. Additionally if your opponents goes after them it likely means not firing at the other knights, which is extremely painful. I could reasonably expect you not to be able to fire your captains at my helverins until turn 2 and prevent a lot of your long range Anti Vehical fire power from hitting me. This is why I think helverins are so good, it should be possible to always keep them relatively save. (Though I do agree they aren’t as great at scoring as the IG).
4) some have us have honor while power-gaming. (It is knights after all

I think any tourney list vs a casual list will make you lose your friends if your friends aren't really the competitive type. Having said that, Its hard to make a "soft" imperial knight list just like its rather hard to make a "soft" custodes list.

Most casual lists probably aren't equipped to deal with at least 3 imperial knights stomping around doing their stuff. However, its an entire codex, so unless we are saying ban the IK codex entirely, otherwise, lists will have to be built with the mind that they may face an imperial knight list. We will just have to deal with it.