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Anyone have a run down on which one of the two are better (Having a difficult time deciding the pros and cons)? Im looking at running them as renegades (knight warden + x2) as an addon to death guard.

Thanks

I am doing the same. I got the glaives because i like to move up the board and get into mid range. And the most importamt pro....they just look cooler.

So, for me, anything that has randomized shots tends to underperform. That's not math, that's just my luck of the dice. If I have a weapon that does d3 shots, I'm going to get 1, all the time. If I have a weapon that has 2d6 shots, I'll probably average around 4.

The Warglaives are very nice. In a pure-Knights list, they are invaluable as screening units for your more vulnerable things, like Helverins, Castellans, and Crusaders, that probably don't want to be in close combat. While the Warglaives will probably be pounded into the dirt by dedicated anti-tank melee, losing one is a loss of 160ish points versus your opponent reaching out and touching your big 600 point Castellan that only hits on 4+ in melee.

When it comes to taking objectives and moving up the field, the Warglaive is also very nice. It can charge into an enemy sitting on an objective without concern, use its sweep attack for plenty of hits, and stay relatively safe locked in combat with most enemy objective-camping units, chipping away at them until they're all dead.

However, if you want to really kill something, the Helverin is where it's at. 4d3 shots that do 3 damage a piece is nothing to scoff at. A Plague Marine may laugh at damage 1 weapons as it shrugs it off with Disgustingly Resilient, but when every wound that goes through does 3 damage? That's a dead plague marine. I've had a Helverin overkill things like Tau Commanders and Death Guard characters, and put some serious hurt even on things like Mortarion and Magnus. It's not just that you're getting an average of 8 shots, it's that 3 damage when it does get through. It shreds light vehicles and tough infantry without worry, and can even really put the hurt on things like pesky fliers!

The kicker with the Helverin is that if your opponent touches it with any sort of melee, say goodbye to the Helverin. It's become a piece of terrain. It is not going to fight its way out of that melee and your opponent doesn't even have to throw anything expensive at it to lock it up. If one Tau Drone makes it into melee with that Helverin, that's it. You're stuck in a cripple fight for the rest of the game. This is a slight exaggeration, but has happened.

When it comes to list-building, consider which you need more of. Are your Questoris made up of Gallants and other heavy-hitters that want to be up close, like Valiants, Wardens, and Errants? Then you probably want Helverins to sit back on objectives and shoot from long range. On the other hand, if you have lots of ranged knights, like Castellans and Crusaders, then Warglaives will be a valuable screening unit that will give you the close combat punch you need to take up-field objectives.

Helvrines are very good. They are fast - have great firepower for the cost and have a really nice reliable flat 3 damage.

realistically they are pretty tough too with 12 W t7 5++ 3+.

Hellglaives seem like they could work pretty well but they have 1 problem. D3 shots only is weak AF. A lot of times that is just going to be 1 shot. Their melle is pretty good but so is the rest of your IK army. I say go helverines.

What else in your list is a fast assault element?

Armigers are so good at the cost they deliberately engineered it so you couldn’t just run them as armies. I think that says a lot.

@meleti - I normally run a winged nurgle dp with sup plate + 2-3 bloat drones, x2 plague marine squads in rhinos (sometimes swapped out for all pox walkers) then build around that as a core

 Valroth wrote:
@meleti - I normally run a winged nurgle dp with sup plate + 2-3 bloat drones, x2 plague marine squads in rhinos (sometimes swapped out for all pox walkers) then build around that as a core

Sounds like you might get more use out of Helverins unless you really need the anti-tank (and in particularly anti-T8) from the Warglaives. They're both really good units though, I think either of them will perform well.

I feel the internet has gone mad for Helverins and I don't really get it. Possibly because glorious DE master race - but you compare them to a Disi ravager and they don't look amazing. I mean they are certainly good - but I don't think they are game winning by themselves. I'd be intrigued to see how the notionally "take 7-9 with support" list works out though but I am not really seeing it. Especially in renegades without the various potential buffs.

The Glaive is okay on paper but seems expensive in practice. You need that shooting/assault turn to be really efficient - as pure shooting or pure assault its pretty poor. You are paying for toughness - but you are not that tough. If you are top turn 2 I think it can work, if you are bottom turn 2 they are probably dead before they get that killer turn or your opponent will chaff them up and doesn't care.

Helverins. They are a solid anti-light armour unit, and pair very well with a warden or crusader.

Go helverins.

Tyel wrote:
I feel the internet has gone mad for Helverins and I don't really get it. Possibly because glorious DE master race - but you compare them to a Disi ravager and they don't look amazing. I mean they are certainly good - but I don't think they are game winning by themselves. I'd be intrigued to see how the notionally "take 7-9 with support" list works out though but I am not really seeing it. Especially in renegades without the various potential buffs.

The Glaive is okay on paper but seems expensive in practice. You need that shooting/assault turn to be really efficient - as pure shooting or pure assault its pretty poor. You are paying for toughness - but you are not that tough. If you are top turn 2 I think it can work, if you are bottom turn 2 they are probably dead before they get that killer turn or your opponent will chaff them up and doesn't care.

I don't know how much cheaper a Warglaive could get without being absurdly undercosted. It's already only 164 points, you aren't paying for much of anything at all. Stuff like PBCs are even more undercosted, but compare Warglaives to Dreadnoughts or even fast assault units like Warp Talons and it's clear just how cheap a Warglaive is.

meleti wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I feel the internet has gone mad for Helverins and I don't really get it. Possibly because glorious DE master race - but you compare them to a Disi ravager and they don't look amazing. I mean they are certainly good - but I don't think they are game winning by themselves. I'd be intrigued to see how the notionally "take 7-9 with support" list works out though but I am not really seeing it. Especially in renegades without the various potential buffs.

The Glaive is okay on paper but seems expensive in practice. You need that shooting/assault turn to be really efficient - as pure shooting or pure assault its pretty poor. You are paying for toughness - but you are not that tough. If you are top turn 2 I think it can work, if you are bottom turn 2 they are probably dead before they get that killer turn or your opponent will chaff them up and doesn't care.

I don't know how much cheaper a Warglaive could get without being absurdly undercosted. It's already only 164 points, you aren't paying for much of anything at all. Stuff like PBCs are even more undercosted, but compare Warglaives to Dreadnoughts or even fast assault units like Warp Talons and it's clear just how cheap a Warglaive is.

A PBC is undercosted for its rediculous level of resilience, being more fairly conpaired to dreadnaughts etc a warglaive isn't bad but personally helverins is my choice as it doesn't need to run the risk of getting swamped by chaff.

Warglaives are close range generalists with a decent anti-heavy unit range weapon and a very good anti-anything CC weapon.

Helverins are long range specialists with a very good anti-anything range weapon and no CC ability worth speaking of.

So the question is, do you need a close in combatant or range support? Answer that, and you have you Armiger.

SJ

Tyel wrote:
I feel the internet has gone mad for Helverins and I don't really get it. Possibly because glorious DE master race - but you compare them to a Disi ravager and they don't look amazing. I mean they are certainly good - but I don't think they are game winning by themselves. I'd be intrigued to see how the notionally "take 7-9 with support" list works out though but I am not really seeing it. Especially in renegades without the various potential buffs.

The Glaive is okay on paper but seems expensive in practice. You need that shooting/assault turn to be really efficient - as pure shooting or pure assault its pretty poor. You are paying for toughness - but you are not that tough. If you are top turn 2 I think it can work, if you are bottom turn 2 they are probably dead before they get that killer turn or your opponent will chaff them up and doesn't care.

i can grant that a De facing a double gatling Ik and 2-3 helverins have nothing to laugh about, if i start 1st i can cripple their 3 ravagers or transports (and that shift the game heavily in my direction) they can have -1 to be hit but the sheer volume of fire and multiple damage against their light veichles is a problem for them, been there done that. I dont know if that can be a real solution but sure helps a lot army lists like Dg to keep at bay those annoying veichles wrecking havocs around, imho.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Warglaives are close range generalists with a decent anti-heavy unit range weapon and a very good anti-anything CC weapon.

Helverins are long range specialists with a very good anti-anything range weapon and no CC ability worth speaking of.

So the question is, do you need a close in combatant or range support? Answer that, and you have you Armiger.

SJ

mostly in Dg armies you need some long range fire, you are ok about CaC (Dp's, characters) so i would go for halverins, you have enough screens with poxwalkers and/or cultists, actually i play a list with 60 Pb and hardly someone can get close enough to engage my halverins.