Switch Theme:

Land Raiders  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

In your opinion what would it take for land raiders to be good, or even competitive?

I think a major points reduction and some kind of strategem(s) that help it's survivability.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






I think the land raider is fine for what it is, it is just a victim of the rules around it. If you want to buff it up though, I think maybe giving it infinite smoke bombs might be a good idea? It's small, but it means it can run up the board without fear.
   
Made in se
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Sweden

The main downer for land raider is that they can't disengage and shoot. A rule that adds such an ability would make them a lot more reliable. It could just be added to the power of the machine spirit rule.

If that suggestion was implemented, I think the points are ok for what you would get

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

Gitdakka wrote:
The main downer for land raider is that they can't disengage and shoot. A rule that adds such an ability would make them a lot more reliable. It could just be added to the power of the machine spirit rule.

If that suggestion was implemented, I think the points are ok for what you would get

That's a solid idea, I hadn't thought of that.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Give it the Baneblade rule so it can shoot from melee, and a 5++

That would be enough to make them a lot more attractive.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

I like the shoot from melee idea. I think a 6+++ like the ven dread might be more appropriate then a 5++

   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

I don't think it needs an invuln really. Not a permanent one anyway. They already have 2+ save and T8. If there was a strategem that said something like treat all damage this phase as AP 0 would be better.
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





It definitely needs a points drop of at least 60-80 on the main hull and a few on the guns to start. They are about 300 to 350 which is nearly what a knight Gallant is now.
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 chimeara wrote:
I don't think it needs an invuln really. Not a permanent one anyway. They already have 2+ save and T8. If there was a strategem that said something like treat all damage this phase as AP 0 would be better.


I agree on the invuln. A 5++ would only be relevant vs. AP4+ stuff. Not that there isn’t a chunk of that out there, but it would be irrelevant to anything AP3 or less.

Which is why I think if you want to boost durability, giving it an ignore wounds on a 6 would be a better option. It would give better survivability vs. all fire.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







My Achilles (~400pts for a 19-wound LR hull with a thunderfire cannon/four-krak-missiles main gun and four multi-meltas in the sponsons) was sort of usable before it got knocked back from a 4++ to a 5++, but even then some way to shoot from melee would help immensely.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Like Chimeara said, it doesn't need an invul.

And if you have it fire in combat then you just hammer another nail into melee armies' coffin without actually dealing with the things that actually kill Landraider.

What it needs is:
1. A points reduction.
2. The ability to move and let it's occupants disembark and charge.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 mrhappyface wrote:
Like Chimeara said, it doesn't need an invul.

And if you have it fire in combat then you just hammer another nail into melee armies' coffin without actually dealing with the things that actually kill Landraider.

What it needs is:
1. A points reduction.
2. The ability to move and let it's occupants disembark and charge.


Land Raiders being easily locked in melee permanently by a unit not much more than 10% of their cost is a big part of the issue though. It's got nothing to do with melee armies really, because it's not about doing any damage in melee, it's about tar pitting. Guardsmen and Cultists are great at tar pitting Land Raiders. So helping it with that would make a huge difference.

I do like the idea of it having special rules to help melee occupants though. It's explicitly supposed to be able to use the front hatch to do it, so I think it makes sense from a fluff standpoint. Anyone can disembark and change though, I assume you mean disembark and move. And then charge.
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Land raiders have become pretty much useless. A knight is only ~20% more expensive but is ~80% better. A land raider needs a ~20% point reduction to become a viable unit again.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






I took two of them for kicks in a 3000 point army a few games back, and I gotta say, they proved to be pretty tough and reasonably shooty. It's that can't fire once touched thing that does them in, big time.

Esp. On Crusaders and Redeemer. I think there's use for the Crusader from time to time in paricular, but having to drive a tank forward into a situation where it will lose the ability to fire is crippling.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

I would change only 2 things about the LR, because as a whole they are designed well for 8th, I think. Th2 main issued around them is that they are expensive for what they do (as in 2 Preds & a Rhino can essentially do it's job for cheaper), and it's too easy to negate them by assaulting them, even with a worthless unit that can't hurt it.

1st, I would change is to drop their points by about 20% as has been suggested.
2nd, I would update PotMS to not only allow them to move and shoot Heavy weapons without -1 to hit, but also to allow them to Fall Back and shoot normally.

Both problems solved.

-

   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Stux wrote:
Land Raiders being easily locked in melee permanently by a unit not much more than 10% of their cost is a big part of the issue though. It's got nothing to do with melee armies really, because it's not about doing any damage in melee, it's about tar pitting. Guardsmen and Cultists are great at tar pitting Land Raiders. So helping it with that would make a huge difference.

Perhaps allow them to fire if INFANTRY are locked in combat with them then or allow them to leave combat and fire with a -1 to hit.
I do like the idea of it having special rules to help melee occupants though. It's explicitly supposed to be able to use the front hatch to do it, so I think it makes sense from a fluff standpoint. Anyone can disembark and change though, I assume you mean disembark and move. And then charge.

Any unit can disembark and move, I was saying the Landraider can move and then it's occupants can disembark.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

 Galef wrote:
I would change only 2 things about the LR, because as a whole they are designed well for 8th, I think. Th2 main issued around them is that they are expensive for what they do (as in 2 Preds & a Rhino can essentially do it's job for cheaper), and it's too easy to negate them by assaulting them, even with a worthless unit that can't hurt it.

1st, I would change is to drop their points by about 20% as has been suggested.
2nd, I would update PotMS to not only allow them to move and shoot Heavy weapons without -1 to hit, but also to allow them to Fall Back and shoot normally.

Both problems solved.

-

That sounds a heck of a lot better. I'd run LR every game probably if that was the case.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





When in doubt, address points. I dislike introducing suggested rules which ignore a key rule in the game. I've never been a fan of that, at all.

If you're letting Guardsman or Cultists get to your Land Raiders without a fight (and they then have no units near them to assist). Maybe you need to bring back stuff like Electrohulls and defensive grenade launchers as vehicle wargear options.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





 Elbows wrote:
I dislike introducing suggested rules which ignore a key rule in the game. I've never been a fan of that, at all.


I feel the most interesting abilities are ones that ignore rules, so long as they are used appropriately.

Based on Imperial Knights and the Baneblade family, it feels like it is part of the design philosophy that generally if you're spending several hundred points on a model then it needs protection from getting locked out of the game too easily.

Land Raiders are priced only slightly below the cheapest Knights and Super Heavy tanks, just a hair below a naked Gallant for instance. So I absolutely feel that you're sinking enough points that they deserve the same.
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Maybe it speaks more to the rest of my list than the Land Raider specifically, but I found their reputation kind of precedes them. For example, I occasionally run a Redeemer with my Blood Angels LC Termies (I'm committed to making the "bad" units do well, pretty much to a fault), and it usually does well enough to get to where I need. LR's are looked as a huge point dump (ditto Terminators) so some folks put them lower on the target priority order.

Though to be fair, it's best showing ever was when an opponent completely put the blinders on and charged it with a Heldrake from about 5" away... So I'm probably just a little nostalgic more than anything.

Considering the Stormraven kicks the pants off it for less points (and better transport options), it absolutely needs something in the way of a points reduction or some buffs.

I always thought they should be some kind of assaulty vehicle, so maybe having something akin to the Leman Russ' Grinding Advance rule, but for transporting, where if it moves up to half it's current speed embarked models may disembark after it's movement instead of before.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/01 19:09:04


 
   
Made in us
Savage Khorne Berserker Biker





 mrhappyface wrote:
Like Chimeara said, it doesn't need an invul.

And if you have it fire in combat then you just hammer another nail into melee armies' coffin without actually dealing with the things that actually kill Landraider.

What it needs is:
1. A points reduction.
2. The ability to move and let it's occupants disembark and charge.


This is what I've been feeling in 8th, as well. I guess situations may vary, but in pretty much all of them I'd rather take berzerkers in a rhino. T8 and lascannons don't really make the extra points expenditure worthwhile. Maybe once in a while just to use the damn tank so it isn't collecting dust.
   
Made in us
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut





Ohio

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
Like Chimeara said, it doesn't need an invul.

And if you have it fire in combat then you just hammer another nail into melee armies' coffin without actually dealing with the things that actually kill Landraider.

What it needs is:
1. A points reduction.
2. The ability to move and let it's occupants disembark and charge.


This is what I've been feeling in 8th, as well. I guess situations may vary, but in pretty much all of them I'd rather take berzerkers in a rhino. T8 and lascannons don't really make the extra points expenditure worthwhile. Maybe once in a while just to use the damn tank so it isn't collecting dust.

Thats pretty much what I do. I went and got some nice FW doors, so Imma use it dangit! i use it in "fun" games. I've tried in a "Competitive" game, it got blown up T1, along with the guys inside.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Colorado Springs

I feel like GW could be doing more with the new damage stat. Something like -1 damage per hit (to a minimum of 1) or even a flat damage reduction to 1 per hit for the hardest stuff is another layer they can play with to represent hard targets instead of just piling on toughness/wounds.

Tanks can justify having a ton of toughness and wounds, but something like terminators only can to a certain point.
   
Made in sg
Longtime Dakkanaut





Just compare the land raider to what the storm raven can do. The day they balance these two relative to each other (whether by abilities or points), then I would say the Land Raider is balanced.
   
Made in us
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer





Mississippi

I haven't had the chance to use it in real game myself, but from what I've seen of it in battle reports, these are my thoughts:

0) Smoke launchers once per game, but doesn't prevent shooting. Can be deployed during enemy's turn.

1) Treat it as a superheavy; give it the ability to fire it's sponsons at troops it's not in melee and to fire the pintle weapons at troops in melee (i.e., the Steel Behemoth rules from Baneblades).

2) Allow different sponsons on each side; CA helped with some of this but the current chassis are either designed to sweep hordes or hunt vehicles - there's no middle ground. There's not an option to split, say, hurricane bolters on one side, lascannons on the other (or lascannons in the rear sponsons and hurricane bolters in the front for Matched Play). Maybe allow Frag Launchers on all versions.

3) Assault ramp should allow LR move + Unit charge out of the front.

I'm willing to see price cost adjustments for this, just feel like these should be part of the LR package.


It never ends well 
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 chimeara wrote:
I don't think it needs an invuln really. Not a permanent one anyway. They already have 2+ save and T8. If there was a strategem that said something like treat all damage this phase as AP 0 would be better.


That would have to be pretty expensive strategem. 2CP min, 3CP maybe. Knights pay 1/3 for bumping 5+ to 4+ or 4+ to 3+. No way 2++ is impossible

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in gb
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Cloud City, Bespin

I think the terminus ultra shouldn’t explode if all weapons are fired at the same time,
It should be a one time use or as a last resort

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Straight out if the pot, bang it on. What else is there to know?
 DV8 wrote:
Blood Angels Furioso Dreadnought should also be double-fisted.
 
   
Made in gb
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





Why Aye Ya Canny Dakkanaughts!

Rybrook wrote:
I think the terminus ultra shouldn’t explode if all weapons are fired at the same time,
It should be a one time use or as a last resort

It doesn't explode if it shoots all it's guns though.

Ghorros wrote:
The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
 Marmatag wrote:
All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I think they should only cost it for the guns, armour and wounds. Have transport as a bonus.
   
Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





Personally I'd rather just make it better than make it cheaper. It should be a centrepiece model for Marine armies, essentially their Lord of War vehicle. Heck, make it LoW even. Just make it good!
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: