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I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

Considering the majority of their stratagems are really bad I would say yes it is worth it. What else are you going to spent those points on?

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

If you're going to play with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, just take Shrike or the FW character Lias Issodon instead. Chapter Master for no CP, with a whackton of awesome special rules and being able to Deep Strike 3 units baked in.

SM have exactly 3 good stratagems. Killshot (for letting Autocannon predators wounds T8 on 4's), Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells (for letting a Devestator shoot twice at BS2+ and inflict mortal wounds). The Chapter Master stratagem is too expensive for the tiny benefit it gives. You're better off using Shrike or Lias.

Remember, you can paint your dudes however you want, and still use the RAVEN GUARD or RAPTORS keyword, and thus have access to their special characters.

Shrike is also pretty good.

That he is. Making your own "custom" chapter is a waste when you can just pick RAVEN GUARD and paint your dudes however you want.

That being said, I don't think it's a terrible use of CP if you have a lot of them and are using a captain anyway. If a pure space Marine army with x2 battillions was worth taking, I could see it being okay in a gunline list.

As much as taking Raven Guard and Shrike would be a benefit, I really don’t want to do that, and I would be fine with that handicap. So, in the context that I will only have one captain in the army, a lieutenant, Devastators and Hellblasters, is it worth it in that circumstance and the circumstances I said prior?

 Apple Peel wrote:
As much as taking Raven Guard and Shrike would be a benefit, I really don’t want to do that, and I would be fine with that handicap. So, in the context that I will only have one captain in the army, a lieutenant, Devastators and Hellblasters, is it worth it in that circumstance and the circumstances I said prior?

Then no, it isn't. You want to save your CP for Flakk Missiles and Hellfire Shells.

I think it depends on your total CP and how many units you think he'll be buffing.

jcd386 wrote:
I think it depends on your total CP and how many units you think he'll be buffing.

Ten command points. Three to six units being buffed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
As much as taking Raven Guard and Shrike would be a benefit, I really don’t want to do that, and I would be fine with that handicap. So, in the context that I will only have one captain in the army, a lieutenant, Devastators and Hellblasters, is it worth it in that circumstance and the circumstances I said prior?

Then no, it isn't. You want to save your CP for Flakk Missiles and Hellfire Shells.

Space Marines are pretty good at generating CPs if they want to. In my experience, 3 points for the Chapter Master stratagem is pretty much always worth it if you have any sort of firebase, which the OP does. Rerolling everything is just too good to pass up, especially with a Lieutenant to re-roll 1s to wound. The MWs from the other two stratagems are nice, but you'll get at least as much mileage out of rerolling all your lascannons and regular missile launchers too.

In general you should consider taking a named chapter master if you can.

For example, if you're playing Dark Angels, bringing Azrael would be smart because he gives you the rerolls, CP, and a 4+ invuln for some duders.

Although I agree that in a general sense, there aren't stratagems worth using, so you may as well just leme leme upgrade if you have the points.

My play group basically faps to these guys. BA don't get them. So I guess yes?

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

I do it every game, running lots of basic Space Marines as UM. IMO, why spend another 100 points on a named character when I can do the Chapter Master upgrade for 3 CP? Mostly I think it depends on if you want to take a named character or not.

When I play Chaos I take Abaddon every time, because I think he's worth it for the same bonus plus he makes everyone around him immune to morale, which is really big in my book. When I build Loyalist lists though, I just want the extra points for more stuff. So instead of taking Calgar (Or Guilliman) I take a cheap Captain and CM him.

Totally worth it. I play a Salamander successor with all the free rerolls and I still think it's worth the CPs.

If you can, take a named chapter master. It's always going to be better than sacrificing three rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
Totally worth it. I play a Salamander successor with all the free rerolls and I still think it's worth the CPs.

Odd that you italicised still. Playing salamanders is probably the only time its worth it because of the rerolls.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
If you can, take a named chapter master. It's always going to be better than sacrificing three rerolls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Newman wrote:
Totally worth it. I play a Salamander successor with all the free rerolls and I still think it's worth the CPs.

Odd that you italicised still. Playing salamanders is probably the only time its worth it because of the rerolls.

Salamanders make it slightly redundant. The CM rerolls are more valuable on another chapter because it pays for itself faster.

You have enough named Chapter Masters that it is easily one of the worst stratagems in the game, period.

Its literal only use is Black Templars with a generic Captain with the Crusaders Helm. That's basically it. 9" full rerolls? Yeah that's cool. Shame their Tactics suck but oh well!

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

I do it every game, running lots of basic Space Marines as UM. IMO, why spend another 100 points on a named character when I can do the Chapter Master upgrade for 3 CP? Mostly I think it depends on if you want to take a named character or not.

When I play Chaos I take Abaddon every time, because I think he's worth it for the same bonus plus he makes everyone around him immune to morale, which is really big in my book. When I build Loyalist lists though, I just want the extra points for more stuff. So instead of taking Calgar (Or Guilliman) I take a cheap Captain and CM him.

You don't bring clagar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is another stratagem that is worth using - fighting twice with a character. Quite often - it is best used on the chapter master himself. It's best on Guilliman ofc.

Say you chose a captain instead of Calgar in ultra marines. Calgar gives you 2 CP for being warlord and doesn't cost 3 CP to give full rerolls. That is a net gain for 5 CP and getting a huge beatstick who takes half damage from all sources for about 80 additional points....it is totally worth it. The chapter-master upgrade is not worth it. Lias is the same way. Pedro is the same way. They are all worth it over the chapter master upgrade.

If you don't have access to any of these characters...I'd say it's still really not worth it. On average if you use those command point rerolls you are saving at crucial times - you will net more damage with things like las cannons.

If you are an assault chapter you'll make better use out of chaplains too.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

I do it every game, running lots of basic Space Marines as UM. IMO, why spend another 100 points on a named character when I can do the Chapter Master upgrade for 3 CP? Mostly I think it depends on if you want to take a named character or not.

When I play Chaos I take Abaddon every time, because I think he's worth it for the same bonus plus he makes everyone around him immune to morale, which is really big in my book. When I build Loyalist lists though, I just want the extra points for more stuff. So instead of taking Calgar (Or Guilliman) I take a cheap Captain and CM him.

You don't bring clagar?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There is another stratagem that is worth using - fighting twice with a character. Quite often - it is best used on the chapter master himself. It's best on Guilliman ofc.

Say you chose a captain instead of Calgar in ultra marines. Calgar gives you 2 CP for being warlord and doesn't cost 3 CP to give full rerolls. That is a net gain for 5 CP and getting a huge beatstick who takes half damage from all sources for about 80 additional points....it is totally worth it. The chapter-master upgrade is not worth it. Lias is the same way. Pedro is the same way. They are all worth it over the chapter master upgrade.

If you don't have access to any of these characters...I'd say it's still really not worth it. On average if you use those command point rerolls you are saving at crucial times - you will net more damage with things like las cannons.

If you are an assault chapter you'll make better use out of chaplains too.

For the points of Calgar I get the Captain/Chapter Master plus the Lt. with points to spare. I prefer the spare points to the CP. If I could take the Power Armored Calgar for a decent price I'd consider him more. The access to Transports is useful to me.

I don’t think Marneus is worth once you’ve played Ultramarines for awhile and have some experience. He is great though when you’re first starting for sure.

150ish points for Generic Chapter Master and Lt.

270ish points for Calgar, Lt. and 5 CPs.

So the difference between Generic Chapter Master and Calgar+5CPs has to be worth 120 points, and I tend to not think so when I'm building lists. But that's me.

Calgar is pretty good all by himself in melle though. So, it's not like you're wasting points for nothing.

 koooaei wrote:
Calgar is pretty good all by himself in melle though. So, it's not like you're wasting points for nothing.

Agreed, he's pretty capable. But it's currently rare that I wind up with my commander in melee, and more common that I need to move my battle line, in which case I want to either be in a transport or have a Jump Pack. I think a Captain with Thunder Hammer winds up being close to damage output as Calgar because of the straight 3 damage.

I'm sure I'll use Calgar from time to time once i paint him, but I doubt he'll be my mainstay.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Calgar is pretty good all by himself in melle though. So, it's not like you're wasting points for nothing.

Agreed, he's pretty capable. But it's currently rare that I wind up with my commander in melee, and more common that I need to move my battle line, in which case I want to either be in a transport or have a Jump Pack. I think a Captain with Thunder Hammer winds up being close to damage output as Calgar because of the straight 3 damage.

I'm sure I'll use Calgar from time to time once i paint him, but I doubt he'll be my mainstay.

I don't think so. Calgar has 5 attacks with no penalty and I think the math behind a 2+ rerollable and then a -1 to hit was like 75% accuracy?


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Plus what else is there to spend on with those 80 points? Only thing off the top of my head is maybe a Rapier battery but that's about it.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

If you're going to play with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, just take Shrike or the FW character Lias Issodon instead. Chapter Master for no CP, with a whackton of awesome special rules and being able to Deep Strike 3 units baked in.

SM have exactly 3 good stratagems. Killshot (for letting Autocannon predators wounds T8 on 4's), Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells (for letting a Devestator shoot twice at BS2+ and inflict mortal wounds). The Chapter Master stratagem is too expensive for the tiny benefit it gives. You're better off using Shrike or Lias.

Remember, you can paint your dudes however you want, and still use the RAVEN GUARD or RAPTORS keyword, and thus have access to their special characters.

Didn’t GW recently say that you must have the same keyword to match thier paintscheme ?

So ultramarines and ... blue ultramarines ?


I know it doesn’t matter in friendlies though

 Formosa wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

If you're going to play with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, just take Shrike or the FW character Lias Issodon instead. Chapter Master for no CP, with a whackton of awesome special rules and being able to Deep Strike 3 units baked in.

SM have exactly 3 good stratagems. Killshot (for letting Autocannon predators wounds T8 on 4's), Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells (for letting a Devestator shoot twice at BS2+ and inflict mortal wounds). The Chapter Master stratagem is too expensive for the tiny benefit it gives. You're better off using Shrike or Lias.

Remember, you can paint your dudes however you want, and still use the RAVEN GUARD or RAPTORS keyword, and thus have access to their special characters.

Didn’t GW recently say that you must have the same keyword to match thier paintscheme ?

So ultramarines and ... blue ultramarines ?


I know it doesn’t matter in friendlies though

No, they did not. They said you had to do it for their Grand Tournament. People really need to stop conflating Tournament House Rules with official rules.

 Formosa wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I am new to Space Marines. I plan to expand my forces to eventually include a Space Marine gunline, specifically, a Raven Guard successor chapter. The way my list will plan out, I will only have ten command points. Should I use three for chapter master?

If you're going to play with Raven Guard Chapter Tactics, just take Shrike or the FW character Lias Issodon instead. Chapter Master for no CP, with a whackton of awesome special rules and being able to Deep Strike 3 units baked in.

SM have exactly 3 good stratagems. Killshot (for letting Autocannon predators wounds T8 on 4's), Flakk Missile and Hellfire Shells (for letting a Devestator shoot twice at BS2+ and inflict mortal wounds). The Chapter Master stratagem is too expensive for the tiny benefit it gives. You're better off using Shrike or Lias.

Remember, you can paint your dudes however you want, and still use the RAVEN GUARD or RAPTORS keyword, and thus have access to their special characters.

Didn’t GW recently say that you must have the same keyword to match thier paintscheme ?

So ultramarines and ... blue ultramarines ?


I know it doesn’t matter in friendlies though

that's only for an event at warhammer world. it's not a game rule it's a venue rule.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Calgar is pretty good all by himself in melle though. So, it's not like you're wasting points for nothing.

Agreed, he's pretty capable. But it's currently rare that I wind up with my commander in melee, and more common that I need to move my battle line, in which case I want to either be in a transport or have a Jump Pack. I think a Captain with Thunder Hammer winds up being close to damage output as Calgar because of the straight 3 damage.

I'm sure I'll use Calgar from time to time once i paint him, but I doubt he'll be my mainstay.

I don't think so. Calgar has 5 attacks with no penalty and I think the math behind a 2+ rerollable and then a -1 to hit was like 75% accuracy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus what else is there to spend on with those 80 points? Only thing off the top of my head is maybe a Rapier battery but that's about it.

The CC ability averages close enough, the maneuverability with a jump pack is better, and the certainty of 3W hits is worth a bit, so it's just a matter of taste imo.

90 points gets a Command Squad with Storm Bolters and Chainswords. Or the rest of the army has more flexibility in their loadouts or whatever. 84 points is 4 Plasma Cannons, for example.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Calgar is pretty good all by himself in melle though. So, it's not like you're wasting points for nothing.

Agreed, he's pretty capable. But it's currently rare that I wind up with my commander in melee, and more common that I need to move my battle line, in which case I want to either be in a transport or have a Jump Pack. I think a Captain with Thunder Hammer winds up being close to damage output as Calgar because of the straight 3 damage.

I'm sure I'll use Calgar from time to time once i paint him, but I doubt he'll be my mainstay.

I don't think so. Calgar has 5 attacks with no penalty and I think the math behind a 2+ rerollable and then a -1 to hit was like 75% accuracy?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus what else is there to spend on with those 80 points? Only thing off the top of my head is maybe a Rapier battery but that's about it.

The CC ability averages close enough, the maneuverability with a jump pack is better, and the certainty of 3W hits is worth a bit, so it's just a matter of taste imo.

90 points gets a Command Squad with Storm Bolters and Chainswords. Or the rest of the army has more flexibility in their loadouts or whatever. 84 points is 4 Plasma Cannons, for example.

Plasma Cannons are bad so I don't see a point with that.

You're right on the Command Squad, but you were already probably fitting one in, and the squad size can vary enough that I don't think I need an additional 80 points. They're like the Elite tax to the Scouts troop tax if that makes sense. You're already taking these things.