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So, yet another Dark Angels novel, and yet another completely fethed up representation of the Chapter. Why does EVERYONE write them this way?

I'm not a DA fanboy. Heck, I'm an Ork fanboy. I don't expect them to be the coolest, or the toughest, or the bravest.

Hell, I've reluctantly accepted that they are the feckless douchebags of 40K. I don't know why the writers decided that they were going to be the biggest asshats in the Imperium, or why they were going to have insanely counter-productive traditions, or even whey they decided to firmly establish that literally everything that went wrong for the Dark Angels is their own damn fault.

But fine. They are colossal f***-ups, inveterate jerks, and way more traitorous than half the inhabitants of the Eye. Fine. That's the way you want to write them--great.

But for all that's holy, they have TEN COMPANIES. Do the Third through the Tenth EVER do anything interesting? Is every single action anywhere in the galaxy spearheaded by the Ravenwing and overseen by the Deathwing?


So, the plot of War of Secrets is that newly assigned squads of Primaris Marines are attached to a Dark Angels operation, and nobody seems to trust them, and they oversee the Deathwing doing something sketchy, and they find out that the force is actually hunting down a 'renegade' Dark Angel and is willing to ally with Xenos to slay their own brethren (in the Angels of Absolution) and kill Imperial Citizens for the Tau as well. Plus, they learn that they are being used by the DA as cannon fodder and mindwiped after the battles.

Seriously? You're bringing entirely new Marines into the Dark Angels, so you decide to send them on "Hunt the Fallen" mission first thing, and just hope they don't learn anything about it? You couldn't find a SINGLE strike force ANYWHERE that you could attach a few squads of Primaris to that wasn't being actively suborned by the First and Second companies? Do the Dark Angels do ANYTHING but hare all over the galaxy like a rabbit-scenting beagle for the Fallen? They aren't embroiled in any wars, or garrisoning any planets, or guarding anything? All of them are hunting the Fallen all the freaking time, and 80% of the marines just haven't cottoned on to it yet?

I hate, hate, hate that the ONLY thing that GW seems to find interesting about the DA is the Hunt for the Fallen. It makes the Chapter seem freaking useless and it makes 80% of their marines seem like morons. How can you do NOTHING but be led around by your noses by the Ravenwing and the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries, but not figure out what's up.

If the occasional rumor of the Fallen came across the Deathwing every once is a while, and they occasionally abandoned their allies for inexplicable reasons, they would seem aloof and mysterious and maybe not to be trusted. If, instead, every mission we ever learn about is one where the Dark Angels screw over the Imperium to go do their own thing, then it kind of seems like that's ALL THEY DO, and it seems like the Imperium would regard them as such.

"No thank you. We respectfully decline the assistance of the Dark Angels, as we are sure that, like in every previous engagement known to mankind, you will bugger off and leave us in the lurch. We will utilize the assistance of someone more reliable, like Blood Axe mercenaries. They only betray us about 50% of the time."

The Space Wolves don't ONLY fight Thousand Sons. The Salamanders don't only fight Dark Eldar. The Ultramarines don't only fight Tyranids. Why is the ONLY interesting thing that any writer can seem to write about the Dark Angels is their 'completely secret, totally mysterious hunt for the Fallen." GIVE IT A REST.

one of the reasons I am dumping my 40k dark angels (good with the 30k )

The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

^ This. I imagine most if not all blood angel books deal with the whole red thrist/black rage. because that makes them differant from vanilla Marines. It's doubly true for this partiuclar story as well. when Primaris Marines where released the very first reaction from a lotta people re DA Primaris was "ohh how's that gonna work with em being so secretive?" if the first
"dark angel primaris" story was anything OTHER then "how do they interact with the whole fallen thing" I suspect folks would be dissappointed

I liked Legacy of Caliban omnibus, but it is also tale of Deathwing and Ravenwing. It shows how deep secrets are and what kind people fallen are.

HH is better but that is true for other legions too, specially with Thousand Sons.

Nareik hits it perfectly on the head.

One of the most interesting features of the Dark Angels is their Hunt for the Fallen. It's probably the main thing that makes them unique.
First Founding? There's eight other Chapters. "Legion" strength? Space Wolves/any Traitor faction. Loves plasma? Well, that's both flanderization, and good luck writing a story which is based on the premise of plasma guns.

Having a morally ambiguous and sinister group of "Loyalists" is one of the main things the DA have going for them. After all - if you're going to write for the Dark Angels, there's no point writing about their 3rd-10th Companies when they're practically the same as any other Chapter - you might as well write for another Chapter and give them more fleshed out material.

I also think you're missing the point on "Space Wolves don't only fight Thousand Sons/Ultramarines don't always fight Tyranids": firstly, Space Wolves often DO fight Thousand Sons, and a great deal of stories are about that. However, it's not who they fight that matters - it's using their "foe" as a way to explore the Chapter and it's flaws and traits.

For the Space Wolves, the trait that gets focused on is their relationship to the wider Imperium, but also savage vs scholar - their animalistic natures versus the deeper thought and knowledge that they must temper it with. This is shown in the embodiment of the Thousand Sons.

For the Blood Angels, a lot of their stories focus on the Red Thirst/Black Rage/Sanguinius - because those shape the Chapter and give depth for us to explore.

The Ultramarines' flaw? Not Tyranids. Not Word Bearers. The Codex. So many Ultramarine stories deal with the protagonist struggling against their own confines of honour and duty - any novel that doesn't is nearly always because they're the Ultranmarines, and therefore poster boys.

The Dark Angels' thing is the Fallen. And frankly, considering the amount of people questioning how the Primaris would fit in to that, it would be insulting if GW did a Primaris story for the DA in the 4th Company.

I'm dumbfounded.

So the DA spend years carefully grooming and hypno-conditioning their initiates into loyal marines before selecting the few who can be trusted to learn the most rudimentary things that the Ravenwing know...but it's sensible to assign completely new Primaries marines to a joint Deathwing/Ravenwing Hunt for the Fallen operation in their literal FIRST combat operation with the Chapter, then, spill most of the beans to them and create an entirely new Circle of secretive Primaris for them to join? The Chapter spends thousands of years concealing a hugely consequential treasonous act (and committing untold other treasons to keep it secret), but they also slip up and let the new guys learn about out on their very first combat operation? Whoops?
How could they have kept this a secret from the Inquisition for thousands of years if two squads of Primaris can figure it out in a couple of weeks?

I just don't see it. I don't see how it's not insanely lazy writing. You could spend time, in a trilogy, even, building up to a big revelation, where the Primaris demonstrate their loyalty, bond with their Chapter's traditions, and eventually get sent into missions where their potential to be inducted into the deeper mysteries of the Chapter are tested. Heck, you could do that in the background and just tell us that these Primaris have been on many missions since their inductions and are now being evaluated by the Inner Circle. Instead, they are thrown into a Hunt for the Fallen on the first mission ever, goof it up a good bit, disobey orders, get marked for death, and then get inducted into their own Inner Circle. I can't see how that is lazy writing.


And to say that the only thing that makes the Dark Angels interesting is the Inner Circle and the Hunt for the Fallen makes my argument for me. Other Marine chapters don't have the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, and yet we can still write interesting novels about them. Don't the 3rd through the 10th companies have any traditions, or distinctive features, or notable history, or interesting heroes? It's EIGHTY PERCENT of the Chapter, and yet we accept that if you don't write about the Ravenwing and the Deathwing then the story will be bland and boring and you might as well do it about other Space Marines who are more interesting.

All Blood Angels struggle with the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, to one extent or another, sooner or later. All Space Wolves struggle with the Curse of the Wulfen, to one extent or another. All Ultramarines struggle with the legacy of the Codex. What do ALL Dark Angels struggle with? Not just the Inner Circle. Why are the 80% of the Chapter that don't wear black or white have anything interesting about them?

I get that the Fallen and the Hunt are really cool and interesting, but EVEN TO MOST DARK ANGELS, that's a complete secret. What do those guys do? What do they think about their missions? What traditions do they have? Like, what do Imperial Citizens think when the regular GREEN Dark Angels show up?

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

 Insectum7 wrote:

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

sure it can, but the whole fallen thing is what defines the dark angels. it's what we wanted to see in the book. we didn't, for example, want to see "dark angels Xth company with primaris marines kills orks" because thats no differant from anyone else, people wanted to se the fallen aspect. they wanted to know how it'd work etc.

Fundamentally, this is all for the same reason as Space Wolves getting all Wolfy-Wolf-McWolf with Wolfclaws riding giant Wolfwolves and Blood Angels with more Blood-Themed-Things than the (Bloody) World Eaters.

The underlying problem is that GW's current writers are not the people who came up with the original concepts, where they were interesting spice to make differently-coloured marines feel less generic. They're ascended fanboys writing, essentially, fan-fiction based on a setting they fell in love with when they were twelve. With all the ridiculous Flanderization and Turn-It-Up-To-Eleven nonsense that you'd expect.

They're trapped in an endless cycle of having to make 'new' things that are 'even cooler' (to twelve-year-old boys) than what came before, but unable to introduce any genuinely new concepts because it all has to fit with the colossal mess that is the existing canon. So it all just gets more and more out of hand and any subtlety gets eroded away.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

sure it can, but the whole fallen thing is what defines the dark angels. it's what we wanted to see in the book. we didn't, for example, want to see "dark angels Xth company with primaris marines kills orks" because thats no differant from anyone else, people wanted to se the fallen aspect. they wanted to know how it'd work etc.

But that statement also implicitly means "nothing else about Dark Angels is of interest or importance." Which doesn't have to be true. As the fallen thing continues to get doubled-down on, it drowns out anything else and ultimately turns the chapter into a caricature.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

sure it can, but the whole fallen thing is what defines the dark angels. it's what we wanted to see in the book. we didn't, for example, want to see "dark angels Xth company with primaris marines kills orks" because thats no differant from anyone else, people wanted to se the fallen aspect. they wanted to know how it'd work etc.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Piscina_IV

You can have stories about other aspects than fallens with DA.

tneva82 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

nareik wrote:
The thing is, it is Deathwing and Ravenwing that make Dark Angels interesting.

If you want to write about their companies 3-10 just doing normal space marine things, which is what Dark Angels do like 99% of the time, then you may as well just use another made up chapter, so as to further expand the setting and also be less constrained by existing background.

The problem of this, is even though running off to catch fallen is like a once per century thing it is the only thing that ever gets written for Dark Angels, so it makes it look like that is all they are about (whereas the truth is they are a solidly respected well functioning chapter in most respects).

Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

sure it can, but the whole fallen thing is what defines the dark angels. it's what we wanted to see in the book. we didn't, for example, want to see "dark angels Xth company with primaris marines kills orks" because thats no differant from anyone else, people wanted to se the fallen aspect. they wanted to know how it'd work etc.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Battle_of_Piscina_IV

You can have stories about other aspects than fallens with DA.

you absolutely can, but when Primaris Marines where released the big "question" re primaris dark angels was "how would they fit with the chapter given it's secrets" if it had JUST been about say.. fighting Tau it would have been, at best, mearly a fun story, the problem is it doesn't address what we the fans NEED a story about Prtimaris Dark Angels to address, namely "how do they interact with the inner circle?"

Da Butcha wrote:I'm dumbfounded.

So the DA spend years carefully grooming and hypno-conditioning their initiates into loyal marines before selecting the few who can be trusted to learn the most rudimentary things that the Ravenwing know...but it's sensible to assign completely new Primaries marines to a joint Deathwing/Ravenwing Hunt for the Fallen operation in their literal FIRST combat operation with the Chapter, then, spill most of the beans to them and create an entirely new Circle of secretive Primaris for them to join? The Chapter spends thousands of years concealing a hugely consequential treasonous act (and committing untold other treasons to keep it secret), but they also slip up and let the new guys learn about out on their very first combat operation? Whoops?
How could they have kept this a secret from the Inquisition for thousands of years if two squads of Primaris can figure it out in a couple of weeks?

I just don't see it. I don't see how it's not insanely lazy writing. You could spend time, in a trilogy, even, building up to a big revelation, where the Primaris demonstrate their loyalty, bond with their Chapter's traditions, and eventually get sent into missions where their potential to be inducted into the deeper mysteries of the Chapter are tested. Heck, you could do that in the background and just tell us that these Primaris have been on many missions since their inductions and are now being evaluated by the Inner Circle. Instead, they are thrown into a Hunt for the Fallen on the first mission ever, goof it up a good bit, disobey orders, get marked for death, and then get inducted into their own Inner Circle. I can't see how that is lazy writing.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I've not read it myself, but if the implications that a "rookie" squad of Primaris Marines are put in a "Hunt the Fallen" mission as one of their first operations, I can see how that's lazy.

However, it is an easy fix narratively - just establish that the Primaris Marines have been part of the Dark Angels for quite some time, but are still not fully "part" of them - the Chapter's higher ups decide to test their true colours by throwing them into a "Hunt the Fallen" mission.

And to say that the only thing that makes the Dark Angels interesting is the Inner Circle and the Hunt for the Fallen makes my argument for me. Other Marine chapters don't have the Deathwing and the Ravenwing, and yet we can still write interesting novels about them. Don't the 3rd through the 10th companies have any traditions, or distinctive features, or notable history, or interesting heroes? It's EIGHTY PERCENT of the Chapter, and yet we accept that if you don't write about the Ravenwing and the Deathwing then the story will be bland and boring and you might as well do it about other Space Marines who are more interesting.

However, with Primaris IN PARTICULAR, where the whole Fallen aspect is a very strong plot point, that's the big question that needs answering for the Dark Angels.

It's not to say that a Primaris story about the DA in the 3rd Company wouldn't be bad, but it would be no different to picking any other Chapter.

You say "don't the 3rd through 10th Chapters have any traditions etc etc" - not really. Let's be honest though, neither do the various companies of other Chapters. Ultramarines? Second company or bust, unless it's specifically just following a hero from a different one - aka Uriel Ventris or Telion (which wouldn't really be unique to Dark Angels, or relevant to Primaris).
Blood Angels? Death Company, or 3rd Company (again, purely because that's the generic colour scheme).
The problem with Space Marine Chapters, especially first founders, is that their Chapter is too similar across the whole thing, so you might as well pick from the most recognisable and symbolic of those Companies. For the DA, that's the Ravenwing and Deathwing, because, as you say, what unique features ARE there for the other Companies?

I fail to see how a book dealing with one of the biggest questions we've had on DA Primaris is bland because it deals with that question.

All Blood Angels struggle with the Red Thirst and the Black Rage, to one extent or another, sooner or later. All Space Wolves struggle with the Curse of the Wulfen, to one extent or another. All Ultramarines struggle with the legacy of the Codex. What do ALL Dark Angels struggle with? Not just the Inner Circle. Why are the 80% of the Chapter that don't wear black or white have anything interesting about them?

Exactly - what DO all Dark Angels struggle with? They really don't. The biggest narrative element of the DA IS the Hunt for the Fallen. Aside from that, they're marines with a penchant for plasma.

Waiting for a DA fan to set me straight on that.

I get that the Fallen and the Hunt are really cool and interesting, but EVEN TO MOST DARK ANGELS, that's a complete secret. What do those guys do? What do they think about their missions? What traditions do they have? Like, what do Imperial Citizens think when the regular GREEN Dark Angels show up?

They think exactly the same as when another First Founder shows up.

And frankly, if that's the kind of narrative impact you want, you could easily just do Imperial Fists or Ultramarines instead. The most interesting thing about the Dark Angels is the Fallen. The biggest question many people have had is about how the DA will react re the Fallen to the Primaris. If BL released a DA Primaris book first that didn't tackle that, I'd be annoyed.

Insectum7 wrote:Characters and story and the way that it's told make something interesting. A generic space marine system campaign can be interesting in capable hands. Band of Brothers was fascinating, but it wasn't like they were super special ultra leet herp derp. They were just some soldiers on the job, for the most part.

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits?

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice?

BrianDavion wrote:you absolutely can, but when Primaris Marines where released the big "question" re primaris dark angels was "how would they fit with the chapter given it's secrets" if it had JUST been about say.. fighting Tau it would have been, at best, mearly a fun story, the problem is it doesn't address what we the fans NEED a story about Prtimaris Dark Angels to address, namely "how do they interact with the inner circle?"

Exactly. Doing a story with the Dark Angels, featuring Primaris, that doesn't tackle the Fallen, is a wasted opportunity to answer questions about the setting.

Sure, you can have stories about companies 3-10, and they'd be fine, but the biggest feature of the DA (unless someone can prove me wrong) is the Hunt for the Fallen, which only 20% of the Chapter actively engage in. Essentially, that makes only 20% of the Chapter actually relevant in those stories, which is more a fault that GW decided only the Deathwing and Ravenwing should know about the Fallen.

Standard marines are a known element and can be trusted to an extent, raised in the traditions of the dark angels and trained by them.

Primaris are (not forever) an outside force, trained and equipped by someone else, an unknown element.

The standard dark angels are a valuable resource that needs to be carefully used, primaris are outsiders and untested, so use them as such, why risk a tried and tested valuable member of the chapter when you can just Throw some outsiders at the problem and husband your resources.

Add to that the fallen and the primaris become another unknown factor, so why not test a few of them out, they are expendable anyway.

I recommend 'Pandorax' (the novel), purging of kaddilus, and Imperial armour siege of vraks. All are really good and are very much 'green marines' books with the Hunt referenced vaguely in the background if at all.

 Formosa wrote:
Standard marines are a known element and can be trusted to an extent, raised in the traditions of the dark angels and trained by them.

Primaris are (not forever) an outside force, trained and equipped by someone else, an unknown element.

The standard dark angels are a valuable resource that needs to be carefully used, primaris are outsiders and untested, so use them as such, why risk a tried and tested valuable member of the chapter when you can just Throw some outsiders at the problem and husband your resources.

Add to that the fallen and the primaris become another unknown factor, so why not test a few of them out, they are expendable anyway.

thats one thing worth noting, the ending of war of secrets gave me the distinct impression that the dark angels where TESTING Primaris Marines, seeing if they could trust them.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Standard marines are a known element and can be trusted to an extent, raised in the traditions of the dark angels and trained by them.

Primaris are (not forever) an outside force, trained and equipped by someone else, an unknown element.

The standard dark angels are a valuable resource that needs to be carefully used, primaris are outsiders and untested, so use them as such, why risk a tried and tested valuable member of the chapter when you can just Throw some outsiders at the problem and husband your resources.

Add to that the fallen and the primaris become another unknown factor, so why not test a few of them out, they are expendable anyway.

thats one thing worth noting, the ending of war of secrets gave me the distinct impression that the dark angels where TESTING Primaris Marines, seeing if they could trust them.

Yeah I said that at the bottom of my post.


It’s hardly surprising the most chaotic loyalists would behave in such a manner.

People always forget that caliban was a chaos tainted world, yes it was destroyed but the rock is still part of that tainted planet, 10k years of exposure, even slight exposure, of the warp is going to have an effect, it could go a long way to explaining why the dark angels “secrets” curse is so strong, that and the first chapter masters really really screwed things up for every successive generation.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Standard marines are a known element and can be trusted to an extent, raised in the traditions of the dark angels and trained by them.

Primaris are (not forever) an outside force, trained and equipped by someone else, an unknown element.

The standard dark angels are a valuable resource that needs to be carefully used, primaris are outsiders and untested, so use them as such, why risk a tried and tested valuable member of the chapter when you can just Throw some outsiders at the problem and husband your resources.

Add to that the fallen and the primaris become another unknown factor, so why not test a few of them out, they are expendable anyway.

thats one thing worth noting, the ending of war of secrets gave me the distinct impression that the dark angels where TESTING Primaris Marines, seeing if they could trust them.

Yeah I said that at the bottom of my post.


It’s hardly surprising the most chaotic loyalists would behave in such a manner.

People always forget that caliban was a chaos tainted world, yes it was destroyed but the rock is still part of that tainted planet, 10k years of exposure, even slight exposure, of the warp is going to have an effect, it could go a long way to explaining why the dark angels “secrets” curse is so strong, that and the first chapter masters really really screwed things up for every successive generation.

The Rock is also infested with anti Chaos xenos isn't it?

I prefer the idea that Luther had a LOT more Marines than he should have so it looked like they were much more treacherous than other Legions. It's better having a rational issue that got out of hand than having yet more of it down to Chaos.

Luther had an estimated 30,000? marines during the events of angels of caliban, that’s a whole lot of marines.

And chaos taking 10k years to corrupt one of the most loyal legions? Well... that’s pretty grim dark, no matter how stalwart you are, chaos always wins in the end.

It's grimdark but also a little boring when it's Chaos again. It also doesn't make massive amounts of sense considering you have Chapters that are arguably more vulnerable.

Da Butcha wrote:
So, yet another Dark Angels novel, and yet another completely fethed up representation of the Chapter. Why does EVERYONE write them this way?

I'm not a DA fanboy. Heck, I'm an Ork fanboy. I don't expect them to be the coolest, or the toughest, or the bravest.

Hell, I've reluctantly accepted that they are the feckless douchebags of 40K. I don't know why the writers decided that they were going to be the biggest asshats in the Imperium, or why they were going to have insanely counter-productive traditions, or even whey they decided to firmly establish that literally everything that went wrong for the Dark Angels is their own damn fault.

But fine. They are colossal f***-ups, inveterate jerks, and way more traitorous than half the inhabitants of the Eye. Fine. That's the way you want to write them--great.

But for all that's holy, they have TEN COMPANIES. Do the Third through the Tenth EVER do anything interesting? Is every single action anywhere in the galaxy spearheaded by the Ravenwing and overseen by the Deathwing?


So, the plot of War of Secrets is that newly assigned squads of Primaris Marines are attached to a Dark Angels operation, and nobody seems to trust them, and they oversee the Deathwing doing something sketchy, and they find out that the force is actually hunting down a 'renegade' Dark Angel and is willing to ally with Xenos to slay their own brethren (in the Angels of Absolution) and kill Imperial Citizens for the Tau as well. Plus, they learn that they are being used by the DA as cannon fodder and mindwiped after the battles.

Seriously? You're bringing entirely new Marines into the Dark Angels, so you decide to send them on "Hunt the Fallen" mission first thing, and just hope they don't learn anything about it? You couldn't find a SINGLE strike force ANYWHERE that you could attach a few squads of Primaris to that wasn't being actively suborned by the First and Second companies? Do the Dark Angels do ANYTHING but hare all over the galaxy like a rabbit-scenting beagle for the Fallen? They aren't embroiled in any wars, or garrisoning any planets, or guarding anything? All of them are hunting the Fallen all the freaking time, and 80% of the marines just haven't cottoned on to it yet?

I hate, hate, hate that the ONLY thing that GW seems to find interesting about the DA is the Hunt for the Fallen. It makes the Chapter seem freaking useless and it makes 80% of their marines seem like morons. How can you do NOTHING but be led around by your noses by the Ravenwing and the Deathwing for decades, if not centuries, but not figure out what's up.

If the occasional rumor of the Fallen came across the Deathwing every once is a while, and they occasionally abandoned their allies for inexplicable reasons, they would seem aloof and mysterious and maybe not to be trusted. If, instead, every mission we ever learn about is one where the Dark Angels screw over the Imperium to go do their own thing, then it kind of seems like that's ALL THEY DO, and it seems like the Imperium would regard them as such.

"No thank you. We respectfully decline the assistance of the Dark Angels, as we are sure that, like in every previous engagement known to mankind, you will bugger off and leave us in the lurch. We will utilize the assistance of someone more reliable, like Blood Axe mercenaries. They only betray us about 50% of the time."

The Space Wolves don't ONLY fight Thousand Sons. The Salamanders don't only fight Dark Eldar. The Ultramarines don't only fight Tyranids. Why is the ONLY interesting thing that any writer can seem to write about the Dark Angels is their 'completely secret, totally mysterious hunt for the Fallen." GIVE IT A REST.

They've had a bad start throughout the editions, they were originally a gay joke. I've never liked them, very selfish as a legion. They care more about keeping their secrets than anything else. It's a shame because they look really cool and they had the potential to be very cool. Not all legions can be badass though. Plus I loved the HH DA novels, they were badass in 30k. They need to get back to the old knight style. They should to be revamped. Azreal is particularly a complete douche, how he handled warzone fenris was just the height of pettiness. You couldn't do a worse job of writing about a chapter master like in that.

Warzone fenris in general was crap in fairness.

pm713 wrote:
Warzone fenris in general was crap in fairness.

True, all short stories are, they are like historical books, a happened then b then c, there is virtually no character or even story development etc. I only read them for the lore, they are rarely entertaining, except the Kharn one, where they actually wrote a normal novel and just split it up.

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits? 

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice? 

Oh, gee, I dunno... add depth to the Chapter? Put a little nuance in there? Contrast a normal mission with a "fallen" mission and explore tension netween those in the know and those not? Flesh out part of the 80% of the chapter that isn't involved so directly?

 Insectum7 wrote:

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits? 

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice? 

Oh, gee, I dunno... add depth to the Chapter? Put a little nuance in there? Contrast a normal mission with a "fallen" mission and explore tension netween those in the know and those not? Flesh out part of the 80% of the chapter that isn't involved so directly?

You could easily do that by having standard Marines notice secret conversations between officers or starting to ask questions others don't seeing as that's how they get promoted. Or have a Marine whose friend was suddenly shoved into the Deathwing after being MIA for a bit.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits? 

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice? 

Oh, gee, I dunno... add depth to the Chapter? Put a little nuance in there? Contrast a normal mission with a "fallen" mission and explore tension netween those in the know and those not? Flesh out part of the 80% of the chapter that isn't involved so directly?

Yeah its like 'they have secrets' and that's it really. Apart from keeping secrets they have nowhere near the same depth as the other first founding chapters cause in 30k they had depth, why they can't just use that as a bar.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits? 

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice? 

Oh, gee, I dunno... add depth to the Chapter? Put a little nuance in there? Contrast a normal mission with a "fallen" mission and explore tension netween those in the know and those not? Flesh out part of the 80% of the chapter that isn't involved so directly?

Why waste the Primaris on that? One of the biggest questions being asked was "how will the Primaris DA be integrated regarding the Inner Circle".

Frankly, what depth IS there beyond the Inner Circle in the DA? If there is, what is it? If there isn't, then why bother writing for the DA when you could fluff out an entirely separate Chapter with even less knowledge? Why add depth to a Chapter that already has it's own unique selling point? You don't have unique things for some companies? Some Chapters have literally nothing written about them.
I'd rather we got more about those other Chapters than the same Big Four all over again. If you're going to do the Big Four, tackle things that are symbolic of them, or purely for brand recognition.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Yes, absolutely true - but why pick Dark Angels if you're not going to utilise any of their narrative traits? 

I absolutely get that you can make a create story purely by character, but if that's the case, why write about the Dark Angels in particular, when Captain Nonymous from the Marines Generic will suffice? 

Oh, gee, I dunno... add depth to the Chapter? Put a little nuance in there? Contrast a normal mission with a "fallen" mission and explore tension netween those in the know and those not? Flesh out part of the 80% of the chapter that isn't involved so directly?

Why waste the Primaris on that? One of the biggest questions being asked was "how will the Primaris DA be integrated regarding the Inner Circle".

Frankly, what depth IS there beyond the Inner Circle in the DA? If there is, what is it? If there isn't, then why bother writing for the DA when you could fluff out an entirely separate Chapter with even less knowledge? Why add depth to a Chapter that already has it's own unique selling point? You don't have unique things for some companies? Some Chapters have literally nothing written about them.
I'd rather we got more about those other Chapters than the same Big Four all over again. If you're going to do the Big Four, tackle things that are symbolic of them, or purely for brand recognition.

Yeah, I don't collect them but I love Imperial Fists, they need some sorely needed attention as do the rest though.

with the big 4 I see the novels going forward as being a bit like this... we're going to get most of our baseline primaris info from Ultramarine novels. weather you like UMs or not, they're the baseline so they're the ideal chapter for a "this is the norm!" we'll see a smattering of novels about the other big 4 to answer the question how do these chapters deal with X?

Once the basic facts are eistablished we'll see things move out,