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Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





Let me start off by saying, I am well aware that this theory is in no way official fluff or even hinted at fluff. I am not asking if you think it is true* (truth is whatever GW writers decide), but rather if it would be more interesting given the whole story line of the emperor. The theory goes like this:

Defeat of the Old Ones, leads to their withdrawal from this dimension/galaxy/etc. One remains to play the long game. It enters stasis, becomes a traveler searching for a way to eventually restore order to the galaxy, etc.

Finds mankind, realizes their hidden potential and begins guiding them to the ultimate goal of conquering the galaxy and eventually eliminating all their enemies. In the old (retconned?) fluff, the emperor has existed since the dawn of civilization and remained in the shadows until the cataclysm, war against the iron men, etc.

Now, it is at this moment that the Old One/Emperor decides to take a more proactive role, donning the mantle of a human* ruler and creating the Imperium. Why I think this theory makes sense is that the emperor seems to have such a terrible understanding of rather basic aspects of humanity, making miscalculation after miscalculation with the primarchs, etc. He pursues a policy of effectively stalling pscychic maturation of humanity until he can make mankind atheist and, more importantly, resistant to Chaos. Thus, the end goal is to make humanity both the masters of the galaxy and purge any potential worship of the Chaos gods (thereby paving the way for the return of the Old Ones). However, he seems to misunderstand just how powerful the pull of religion is to humanity, which would make sense if he was not actually human. [of course, the current fluff makes sense too - he is so ancient, powerful, and disconnected from humanity anyways]

A few plot points reinforce the theory. First, the emperor's appearance always shifted depending on who is viewing him. This could be explained as the Old One's attempt at remaining incognito. Second, the emperor is so insanely powerful compared to the rest of humanity and appears so far in advance of the psychic maturation of the human race, it is certainly an explanation that could be plausible. Third, it would explain why the emperor waited all those millennia to take action and when he finally does, he fails instantly (a few centuries of active rule compared to millennia in hiding). Fourth, his attempt to gain access to and rebuilt the webway - the source of the Old One's control over the galaxy, initially. Fifth, his enslavement of a C'Tan on Mars - the fact that he even knows what a C'Tan is and how it could be used is odd, if he was just a human born many thousands of years after the War in Heaven.

So, what do you all think?

Gork and Mork help me: 4k+ Orks 3k+ Guard 3k+ Ironhands 3k+ Chaos Marines 2k+ Daemons 4k+ Necrons 4k+ Genestealer cult and Tyranids 1k Dark Eldar 
   
Made in gb
Painting Within the Lines




U.k

It’s not bad, close to heresy but plausible. I heard a lot sillier on here. I could base a cult or rebellion story line around that theory, a rogue inquisitor gets himself convinced it’s true and starts his own sect of “emperors and alien” club.
   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

It's an old theory, and one that still could be true, as it would take some quite blatant background explanation to disprove it.

ph34r's forgeworld Phobos blog
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
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Killer Klaivex







Could be true. It occurred to me before. We'll likely never know for sure though.


 
   
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Lustful Cultist of Slaanesh





New Orleans

Nice! I like it!

And theories that can not be disproved are sooooo much fun

Run with it,
and I'll look at my Lizardmen Slaan a little different now...
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.

   
Made in gb
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Grumblewartz wrote:
Let me start off by saying, I am well aware that this theory is in no way official fluff or even hinted at fluff. I am not asking if you think it is true* (truth is whatever GW writers decide), but rather if it would be more interesting given the whole story line of the emperor. The theory goes like this:

Defeat of the Old Ones, leads to their withdrawal from this dimension/galaxy/etc. One remains to play the long game. It enters stasis, becomes a traveler searching for a way to eventually restore order to the galaxy, etc.

Finds mankind, realizes their hidden potential and begins guiding them to the ultimate goal of conquering the galaxy and eventually eliminating all their enemies. In the old (retconned?) fluff, the emperor has existed since the dawn of civilization and remained in the shadows until the cataclysm, war against the iron men, etc.

Now, it is at this moment that the Old One/Emperor decides to take a more proactive role, donning the mantle of a human* ruler and creating the Imperium. Why I think this theory makes sense is that the emperor seems to have such a terrible understanding of rather basic aspects of humanity, making miscalculation after miscalculation with the primarchs, etc. He pursues a policy of effectively stalling pscychic maturation of humanity until he can make mankind atheist and, more importantly, resistant to Chaos. Thus, the end goal is to make humanity both the masters of the galaxy and purge any potential worship of the Chaos gods (thereby paving the way for the return of the Old Ones). However, he seems to misunderstand just how powerful the pull of religion is to humanity, which would make sense if he was not actually human. [of course, the current fluff makes sense too - he is so ancient, powerful, and disconnected from humanity anyways]

A few plot points reinforce the theory. First, the emperor's appearance always shifted depending on who is viewing him. This could be explained as the Old One's attempt at remaining incognito. Second, the emperor is so insanely powerful compared to the rest of humanity and appears so far in advance of the psychic maturation of the human race, it is certainly an explanation that could be plausible. Third, it would explain why the emperor waited all those millennia to take action and when he finally does, he fails instantly (a few centuries of active rule compared to millennia in hiding). Fourth, his attempt to gain access to and rebuilt the webway - the source of the Old One's control over the galaxy, initially. Fifth, his enslavement of a C'Tan on Mars - the fact that he even knows what a C'Tan is and how it could be used is odd, if he was just a human born many thousands of years after the War in Heaven.

So, what do you all think?


Well we know absolutely nothing about how the emperor was created, we only have theories, so he could be Mork or possibly Gork for all we know. All we really know is that he grew up on earth.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Formosa wrote:
The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.

How did Malcador change things that radically?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in gb
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes






 Formosa wrote:
The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.


Where did you read that? Him being Emperor has nothing to do with Malcador He was known as king before he was Emperor, the Custodes still call him king to this day. We don't know the origin of the Emperor, that he was created by a thousand shaman humans is actually a rumour that's lasted for ages, there is nothing in the actual lore that says anything about his origins.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2018/07/05 03:48:16


 
   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





 Formosa wrote:
The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.


Well, first, I quite clearly said I know that the theory isn't cannon. Second, nothing that is remotely plausible as an alternative to the cannon is "easily disproved" in 40k lore. GW has always played fast and loose with its historical "facts" intentionally, in order to cover up their own retcons/leave openings for future plot developments/create a sense of mystery.

Gork and Mork help me: 4k+ Orks 3k+ Guard 3k+ Ironhands 3k+ Chaos Marines 2k+ Daemons 4k+ Necrons 4k+ Genestealer cult and Tyranids 1k Dark Eldar 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




The War in Heaven was 64 million years ago and The Emperor was said to be born 8,000BC.

As stated it doesn’t make sense how He was further along the evolutionary ladder compared to the rest of humanity. The only logical assumption is that he is a time traveller.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/05 16:36:56


 
   
Made in us
Grisly Ghost Ark Driver





The Eternity Gate

In Master of Mankind he was born a child of Caine and Able so, while unimaginably powerful, still a human.

01001000 01100001 01101001 01101100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01001110 01100101 01100011 01110010 01101111 01101110 00100000 01101111 01110110 01100101 01110010 01101100 01101111 01110010 01100100 01110011 00100001  
   
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Fresh-Faced New User



Whiterun

Another theory is that hes just some kind artificial human created during DAoT, one of the Men of Gold, who existed alongside Men of Stone and Men of Iron.

Full of Power 
   
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 buddha wrote:
In Master of Mankind he was born a child of Caine and Able so, while unimaginably powerful, still a human.


I think that was a metaphor if I remember correctly.
   
Made in at
Privateer




Austria

The Emperor is a human, born 3834 BC in Mesopotamia, in early history known as King Solomon, Alexander the Great, Lazarus, Leonardo da Vinci

source: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Requiem_for_Methuselah_(episode)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Norwich

 Grumblewartz wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.


Well, first, I quite clearly said I know that the theory isn't cannon. Second, nothing that is remotely plausible as an alternative to the cannon is "easily disproved" in 40k lore. GW has always played fast and loose with its historical "facts" intentionally, in order to cover up their own retcons/leave openings for future plot developments/create a sense of mystery.



Funnily enough I hear this bandied around a lot, so what specifically is inconsistent with the universe ?

   
Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





 Formosa wrote:
 Grumblewartz wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
The emperor wasn’t the emperor until he met malcador, prior to that he was just another warlord, so this theory while fun, is easily disproved.

Plus we already know the origin of the emperor, it hasn’t been retconned.


Well, first, I quite clearly said I know that the theory isn't cannon. Second, nothing that is remotely plausible as an alternative to the cannon is "easily disproved" in 40k lore. GW has always played fast and loose with its historical "facts" intentionally, in order to cover up their own retcons/leave openings for future plot developments/create a sense of mystery.



Funnily enough I hear this bandied around a lot, so what specifically is inconsistent with the universe ?


Good question...Orks are green?

Gork and Mork help me: 4k+ Orks 3k+ Guard 3k+ Ironhands 3k+ Chaos Marines 2k+ Daemons 4k+ Necrons 4k+ Genestealer cult and Tyranids 1k Dark Eldar 
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




 buddha wrote:
In Master of Mankind he was born a child of Caine and Able so, while unimaginably powerful, still a human.


Caine and Able eh?

He must have been a powerful psycher to get him self born of that pairing.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Another problem with this theory. The old ones created the Eldar as a child race that they ended up passing on everything to. Why would one of the old ones be extolling a primitive species to wipe out their own creations? Unless you think the emperor is a "rogue" old one or something.
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I like this theory.

I had always settled into him learning about the webway and the C'Tan because of his wandering in the warp, it's interesting to think how elegantly it also lines up with his just having always known about them; and then trying to regain his leverage with the webway.

Very cool.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




If he was an old one. “THE old one” that created the seed of human evolution he literally be humanity’s “god” in the sense that he started everything but clearly totally against religion because he knew no higher power created us it was just him in his science laboratory.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?

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pm713 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the Old Ones went extinct long before humanity started up didn't they?
Nothing to stop one from hanging on somewhere; heck, it could well be where the Tau came from.


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mellow wrote:
If he was an old one. “THE old one” that created the seed of human evolution he literally be humanity’s “god” in the sense that he started everything but clearly totally against religion because he knew no higher power created us it was just him in his science laboratory.

Not only that, the own emperor's origin story refutes this.

Humanity evolved naturally on earth, with no interference from any outside sources. At least none is stated in the lore. The emperor also was not born until something like 8,000 BC. I mean I guess you can argue that an "old one" is basically like a soul and it chose to be born on earth to lead humanity in the "next great experiment" but it still doesn't explain why an old one would be so willing to extoll a primitive species to wipe out its own creations (eldar). It also means the emperor didn't create mankind because he had to be born first, and that requires the existence of mankind.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 04:47:05


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Maybe under those circumstances He would have been under the impression that anything psychic was a threat to the old ones so that’s why he wanted to guide their evolution in a safe manner.

I don’t personally believe it though. I prefer the whole random fluke birth of Him either through shaman sacrifice or just because there were other psykers turning up at the time.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Mellow wrote:
Maybe under those circumstances He would have been under the impression that anything psychic was a threat to the old ones so that’s why he wanted to guide their evolution in a safe manner.

I don’t personally believe it though. I prefer the whole random fluke birth of Him either through shaman sacrifice or just because there were other psykers turning up at the time.

I think the shamanistic thing holds more weight. The chances of a regular human being born with his level of psychic power, and also happening to be a perpetual on top of it? Astronomical. According to John Grammaticus (a perpetual), in the entire realm of Ultramar (which consisted of over 500 planets) there were only 3 perpetuals. One of them was also not a natural perpetual.

Even the strongest Eldar psykers were absolutely terrified of the emperor's sheer psychic strength. When harlequins infiltrated the imperial palace, they compared being even within the same vicinity as the golden throne to be like standing right next to a sun. One of the Eldar even went so far as to think of the emperor as a "freak of nature" and thought to himself that he understood why regular humans worshiped him like a god. The only other human/pseudo-human to have anywhere near the psychic strength of the emperor in the entire history of mankind was Magnus the Red, and he was genetically engineered.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/07/09 07:16:48


 
   
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Whiterun

w1zard wrote:
Mellow wrote:
If he was an old one. “THE old one” that created the seed of human evolution he literally be humanity’s “god” in the sense that he started everything but clearly totally against religion because he knew no higher power created us it was just him in his science laboratory.

Not only that, the own emperor's origin story refutes this.

Humanity evolved naturally on earth, with no interference from any outside sources. At least none is stated in the lore. The emperor also was not born until something like 8,000 BC. I mean I guess you can argue that an "old one" is basically like a soul and it chose to be born on earth to lead humanity in the "next great experiment" but it still doesn't explain why an old one would be so willing to extoll a primitive species to wipe out its own creations (eldar). It also means the emperor didn't create mankind because he had to be born first, and that requires the existence of mankind.


In the 3ed necron codex an eldar farseer mention in passing, how humanity's ancestors were never intended to be anything more than noisy but harmless beasts. In absence of supervision evolution took hold and turned them "into a form that now infests a million worlds" and while eldar of those time were reluctant meddle with life that remained after the God War, there were those who were not.

Full of Power 
   
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Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In the 3ed necron codex an eldar farseer mention in passing, how humanity's ancestors were never intended to be anything more than noisy but harmless beasts. In absence of supervision evolution took hold and turned them "into a form that now infests a million worlds" and while eldar of those time were reluctant meddle with life that remained after the God War, there were those who were not.

Unfortunately, the 3rd edition necron codex has been largely retconned. Which is a shame... the older necron lore was far better than the newer "space egyptian" stuff.

Even if it hadn't been retconned, doesn't this just prove my assertion that humanity evolved naturally?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 11:41:58


 
   
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France

I see several inconsistencies here: you don't have to know exactly what a C'tan is to fight it and confine it into Mars.
Of He was an Old One, he would have known about the Necrons and would have detroyed theirs world during the Great Crusade.
Human psykers do bon with him when they come to Terra, I guess they would immediately understand he is a xenos

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/09 11:57:03


   
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Whiterun

w1zard wrote:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In the 3ed necron codex an eldar farseer mention in passing, how humanity's ancestors were never intended to be anything more than noisy but harmless beasts. In absence of supervision evolution took hold and turned them "into a form that now infests a million worlds" and while eldar of those time were reluctant meddle with life that remained after the God War, there were those who were not.

Unfortunately, the 3rd edition necron codex has been largely retconned. Which is a shame... the older necron lore was far better than the newer "space egyptian" stuff.

Even if it hadn't been retconned, doesn't this just prove my assertion that humanity evolved naturally?



Humans didnt evolve naturally straight from primordial ooze, their animal ancestors were made or atleast influenced by someone(most likely Old Ones), who then evolved into humans when there wasnt anyone holding them back anymore. Tone of the story implies that humanitys current form is more of an unhealthy corruption of their intended function as a part of Earths ecosystem, than some grand next step on a path to enlightenment.

Full of Power 
   
 
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