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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Hi guys,

Soooo.... the faq just dropped and my army get hit so hard with the nerf bat that i think ill still be feeling in 2 years from now.

Don't get me wrong, I know we had it coming, and although I would have been 100% on board with removing the option for a 3++ rerollable, I'm not super behind the way it was done, or the other nerfs that occurred.

But hey, lets look to the future, how do we play Talons (specifically custodes), now that we have had our best toys take away from us?

Questions that I'm asking myself now, and that I'm hoping for your feedback on include:

1. Is it no longer worth taking more than a single shield captain (upgraded to a tribune, of course)?
2. Is it now worth taking valdor, as he has now less base attacks than a shield captain, and only gives one unit derp strike?
3. Are terminators worth taking, as now that praesidium shields offer the same invun, they only loose out on the -1 to hit, and are our cheapest source of power gauntlets?
4. How do we deal with a primarch star now?
5. Without tanking characters, how do we deliver our troops effectively without them being dead?
6. With an extra 500 ish points to play with, if we aren't taking those two shield captains/valdor, what are peoples new wish lists?
7. What the heck is a power spear?

My Thoughts:
1. I'm not sure, I'm having an internal debate on 3 shield/fist sentinels vs a captain.
2. Hes probably still worth it for fearless, and killing dreads/wounded knights before they swing.
3. No idea
4. No idea (this one im particularly interested in solutions to)
5. I guess that the 500 ish points could translate into 7-9 bodies which is a few more wounds to go through, but it still isnt comparable to the number of wounds that were prevented pre nerf.
6. More bikes? Or maybe a slightly higher model count.
7. I guess we get to treat it as any kind of power weapon (axes hear I come)


   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions






Chicago

You would seriously take two Shield Captains in a list? Did you not like having friends?

The Custodes needed to be toned down a bit. They’re still good, just not as overwhelmingly good.

A Shield Captain is still a beast, he’s just not an unkillable beast. The nerfs were needed. The thing I’m most annoyed with is the Misercordia not getting rules. Evidently they spent 10,000 years figuring out how to use it.
   
Made in gb
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Yeah custodes needed the hit. They're still incredibly strong. Valdor is infinitely worth taking still. The mans an absolute machine.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Thanatos73 wrote:
You would seriously take two Shield Captains in a list? Did you not like having friends?


My gaming group is very inclusive of all varieties of player, including those who are interested in playing the game to the best of their ability, and regularly plays games where the players are actually trying to win.

I agree the shield captain is still ok, but I'm uncertain that he is actually a good choice when compared with out other options, and while previously 3 custodes characters was, in my mind, optimal, I don't know if that is still the case.

I was hoping that some people would have some thoughts on how to deal with the new challenges posed to custodes players by the nerfs, but i guess everyone is still on the no more 3++ party bus, to start thinking about how we continue to do well without the excellent solutions we once had.
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

I don't play 30K but I've read the rules enough to understand the changes.

While I can't comment too much on the stats changes, the thing that's annoyed me is the apparent laziness they've put into the Misericordia. It would have been very easy to just come up with something:

"A model with a Misericordia may make an extra attack with it against enemy units with WS4 or less. Stats are S:User, Ap4"

There. Literally came up with it on the spot. It's not perfect but it's better than the apparent "We've only had a couple of years to think of something, so yeah...it doesn't do anything it's just a badge..."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/10 15:17:14


 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Potent Grey Knight Librarian





Fort Worth, TX

Or just call the Misericordia a CCW and be done with it. It's not the only lazy writing, I feel. Valdor's loss of an attack feels like a copy-paste error of the statline. Still no clarification if they really meant Paragon blades instead of spears for Hetaeron Guard. I'm cool with most of the changes, I'm just bothered by the things I feel they missed, and now we'll have to wait, what, at least a year before they bother to get around to it?

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions






Chicago

secretForge wrote:
 Thanatos73 wrote:
You would seriously take two Shield Captains in a list? Did you not like having friends?


My gaming group is very inclusive of all varieties of player, including those who are interested in playing the game to the best of their ability, and regularly plays games where the players are actually trying to win.

I agree the shield captain is still ok, but I'm uncertain that he is actually a good choice when compared with out other options, and while previously 3 custodes characters was, in my mind, optimal, I don't know if that is still the case.

I was hoping that some people would have some thoughts on how to deal with the new challenges posed to custodes players by the nerfs, but i guess everyone is still on the no more 3++ party bus, to start thinking about how we continue to do well without the excellent solutions we once had.


I play Custodes in 30k and 40k. The Shield Captain wasn’t just a strong option. It was stupidly broken and never should have existed in the first place. He is still one of the best generic HQs in the game even with the nerf. The Custodes are still in a good spot, they were just brought down a notch as they should have been. We don’t have the most stupidly broken character anymore. Good! That was a long needed nerf that should’ve been done years ago.

So yes, a Shield Captain is definitely worth taking still. Valdor is definitely worth taking still. Terminators are worth taking depending on your need of fists and or their range weapons. That’s more of a personal preference. Deal with a Primarch Star by either trying to avoid it, or whittle it down with our ranged options and engage it as we always have. So the Shield Captain won’t tie the Primarch up all game, he’ll still tie him up for a while and will do some damage. Anyone with a Primarch Star avoided our Shield Captains before as they would be a tar pit for their star. With the points saved, you can get some more bodies and buy the teleportation option for them. Or buy a transport or maybe some gunstodes as they got a bit of a buff, though I’m not sure they’re worth it still.

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'm pretty sure a power spear is a power lance.
Annoyed they missed this as it's one I've emailed them about. Also plasma grenades being the same as frag is laaazy.

DFTT 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





secretForge wrote:
including those who are interested in playing the game to the best of their ability, and regularly plays games where the players are actually trying to win.


See, the issue here is that the horrendously broken invulnerable tribune was not the result of anyone playing to "the best of their ability". It was a result of spamming the strongest options on the most undercosted character, pointing him at the enemy and saying "kill". There was no "trying" involved in that, no tactical application, just point and click. I am glad it is gone.

2000 points
2000 points
1250 points
1850-2250 points
3000 points heresy era
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

Concurred, there is no playing to the best of your ability as the Custards were, they were point and click and win. And while, yes, you could specifically design an army to take them on and it might, might win against them, in pickup games or tournaments where you'd bring a decently constructed army to take on all-comers, you'd be hammered into the ground by them.

The entire army needed a severe going over and all the changes are welcome. Unlike the change to Scoria...




 
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife




secretForge wrote:
Hi guys,

Soooo.... the faq just dropped and my army get hit so hard with the nerf bat that i think ill still be feeling in 2 years from now.

Don't get me wrong, I know we had it coming, and although I would have been 100% on board with removing the option for a 3++ rerollable, I'm not super behind the way it was done, or the other nerfs that occurred.

But hey, lets look to the future, how do we play Talons (specifically custodes), now that we have had our best toys take away from us?

Questions that I'm asking myself now, and that I'm hoping for your feedback on include:

1. Is it no longer worth taking more than a single shield captain (upgraded to a tribune, of course)?
2. Is it now worth taking valdor, as he has now less base attacks than a shield captain, and only gives one unit derp strike?
3. Are terminators worth taking, as now that praesidium shields offer the same invun, they only loose out on the -1 to hit, and are our cheapest source of power gauntlets?
4. How do we deal with a primarch star now?
5. Without tanking characters, how do we deliver our troops effectively without them being dead?
6. With an extra 500 ish points to play with, if we aren't taking those two shield captains/valdor, what are peoples new wish lists?
7. What the heck is a power spear?

My Thoughts:
1. I'm not sure, I'm having an internal debate on 3 shield/fist sentinels vs a captain.
2. Hes probably still worth it for fearless, and killing dreads/wounded knights before they swing.
3. No idea
4. No idea (this one im particularly interested in solutions to)
5. I guess that the 500 ish points could translate into 7-9 bodies which is a few more wounds to go through, but it still isnt comparable to the number of wounds that were prevented pre nerf.
6. More bikes? Or maybe a slightly higher model count.
7. I guess we get to treat it as any kind of power weapon (axes hear I come)




1 I really can’t believe anyone would take more than 1
2 1 is enough
3 Adrathic destructors, Fire pikes and they gain an extra attack from the misericordia with their cc weapons not being specialist.
So yes they are worth taking. (ignore the bull I wrote about misericordia hadn’t noticed it in the general faq bit rubbish that. The comments about the Terminators guns still stand).
4 If Custodes can’t deal with a primarch Death Star no army can.
5 Line of sight blocking terrain and crusader help. If not Teleportation transponders, Warlord trait that allows 3 infantry units infiltrate.
6 Who the F£&@ takes Valdor and 2 Shield Captains
7 Didn’t notice power spears I’ll have to have another look. Seems like a typical FW mistake.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For me power spear is a mistake the power lance is in the age of darkness rule book that’s how I’ll be running my Jetbikes until FW confirm it.
My favourite change is to the Bolt Caliver of the Sagittarum Guard changing the bolt volley from heavy to assault.
Along with the Custodes dreadnoughts the Sagittarum Guard are the reason I started a Talons force love there design.
All in all a good update to the Custodes side of the force still powerful but not as broken.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/12 18:21:10


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Something to remember about primarch death stars is that primarchs no longer get feel no pain from apothecaries or primus medicaes. That's pretty important.
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Concurred, there is no playing to the best of your ability as the Custards were, they were point and click and win. And while, yes, you could specifically design an army to take them on and it might, might win against them, in pickup games or tournaments where you'd bring a decently constructed army to take on all-comers, you'd be hammered into the ground by them.

The entire army needed a severe going over and all the changes are welcome. Unlike the change to Scoria...



I don't think they changed Scoria enough. He can still easily walk up and 1 shot a Spartan. That was the most OP model in the game. Still ranks up there.

1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife




I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.

 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Eh, I think Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus, and Lorgar are the only ones who could reliably do that, and even then, it's not a guarantee.

1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Omadon's Realm

Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Correct and also correct. A points increase instead of a nerf. Now he isn't worth his points as he can no longer slug it out effectively against a primarch. And lest we forget, that was only in melee, the same counters to primarchs applied to Scoria, ie avoid or tarpit.

Also Russ and the Red Cyclops and Custodes HQs were more than a match for him. We know the oldest Primarchs, most especially Angron, need a booster.



 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Correct and also correct. A points increase instead of a nerf. Now he isn't worth his points as he can no longer slug it out effectively against a primarch. And lest we forget, that was only in melee, the same counters to primarchs applied to Scoria, ie avoid or tarpit.

Also Russ and the Red Cyclops and Custodes HQs were more than a match for him. We know the oldest Primarchs, most especially Angron, need a booster.


He's still a very effective counter. He'll be wounding most primarchs on a 3+, so he's still getting a lot through. It's just not an assured walk up and outright murder a primarch now, like he was.

1st Legion Dark Angels

Eldar Craftworld Eth-Kariel
Spear of Kornous - High Elf Expeditionary Army (Retired) 
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife




 djones520 wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Eh, I think Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus, and Lorgar are the only ones who could reliably do that, and even then, it's not a guarantee.


I think your forgetting Angron st 9 on the charge with armourbane from his axes, Pertarabo with hammer, Magnus is St 9 ap1 without taking into account biomancy, Russ st 8 and Sunder on his axe, Guilliman and his ap1 powerfist.
It’s easier to say the ones who can’t hurt a Spartan: Curze, Corax, Alpharius, Dorn and Mortarion.

 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

Dorn has "Sundering Blow" that allows him to half his attacks, increase his Strength to 8, Gain Instant Death, and sill have AP 2, Shred, Rampage, and Reaping Blow with his chainsword. Can it reliably kill a Spartan? No, but he still can. And really, why would your Primarch be assaulting a Spartan anyways? It's an interesting benchmark to measure the "strength" of a Primarch, but the Spartan is like the Uber Ultimate Vehicle of 30K, used as the Pimp Cadillac for Pimp Primarchs and their Homy's. You see them a lot, but I'm not sure it's the right benchmark for a Primarch. The best way to deal with a Spartan is with dedicated anti-tank firepower. Closing with it to engage in close combat seems like a desperation move, unless it's a dedicated anti-tank squad with melta or chainfists.

Which brings up a very interesting question: What is a good benchmark for measuring the strength or power of a Primarch?

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Kasper Hawser wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Eh, I think Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus, and Lorgar are the only ones who could reliably do that, and even then, it's not a guarantee.


I think your forgetting Angron st 9 on the charge with armourbane from his axes, Pertarabo with hammer, Magnus is St 9 ap1 without taking into account biomancy, Russ st 8 and Sunder on his axe, Guilliman and his ap1 powerfist.
It’s easier to say the ones who can’t hurt a Spartan: Curze, Corax, Alpharius, Dorn and Mortarion.


You forgot Fulgrim. He's useless at attacking anything with an armour value. But then, presumably that's why his legion has plenty of lascannon support squads.
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

Curious: how vulnerable are Shield Captains right now?

Asking because I've had games (multiple) where I threw down 120+ bolter shots against them without doing a wound. They were incredible pre-FAQ to the point where I won't play against them.




   
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Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle




2+ save 3++ invul
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

 techsoldaten wrote:
Curious: how vulnerable are Shield Captains right now?

Asking because I've had games (multiple) where I threw down 120+ bolter shots against them without doing a wound. They were incredible pre-FAQ to the point where I won't play against them.


This seems statistically unlikely.

Standard Space Marine with BS4, 120 shots (4/6 hit): 80 hit
Bolter S4 vs. T5 of Shield Captain (5/6 wound): 26 wounds
Captain has a 2+ save (5/6 saved): 22 saves, 4 unsaved wounds

These are AVERAGE numbers. You could get more or less wounds equally, but its a fair statement to say that you should wound him at least once with 120 bolter shots.

Shield Captains are the ultimate tanks. The 2+ save and toughness 5 ensured immunity to most small arms, and the 3++ rerollable save allowed him to shrug off any heavy, or close combat power weapons in the game. Taking that rerollable away really reigned him in. He is still a good tank, so the best you can probably do is tar pit him. Still, he is a very frustrating model to deal with.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator





Eye of Terror

 Tamwulf wrote:
 techsoldaten wrote:
Curious: how vulnerable are Shield Captains right now?

Asking because I've had games (multiple) where I threw down 120+ bolter shots against them without doing a wound. They were incredible pre-FAQ to the point where I won't play against them.


This seems statistically unlikely.

Standard Space Marine with BS4, 120 shots (4/6 hit): 80 hit
Bolter S4 vs. T5 of Shield Captain (5/6 wound): 26 wounds
Captain has a 2+ save (5/6 saved): 22 saves, 4 unsaved wounds

These are AVERAGE numbers. You could get more or less wounds equally, but its a fair statement to say that you should wound him at least once with 120 bolter shots.


Rub it in, why don't you? : )

You are correct, it would be more accurate to say it was 80 - 120 shots and 0 - 1 wounds.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Shield Captains are the ultimate tanks. The 2+ save and toughness 5 ensured immunity to most small arms, and the 3++ rerollable save allowed him to shrug off any heavy, or close combat power weapons in the game. Taking that rerollable away really reigned him in. He is still a good tank, so the best you can probably do is tar pit him. Still, he is a very frustrating model to deal with.


I'd still rather play against TSons.

   
Made in us
[DCM]
Abel





Washington State

 techsoldaten wrote:


Rub it in, why don't you? : )

You are correct, it would be more accurate to say it was 80 - 120 shots and 0 - 1 wounds.

I'd still rather play against TSons.


Sorry bud. There is far too much "Touchy-Feely" in table top gaming. "I feel that model is OP..." or "I never win against X", etc. etc. with few people understanding the underlying chances of probability. It was a bit surprising to me to crunch the numbers and only come up with an average of four wounds. My sense of fair play and optimism says I should be able to shoot any model on a 32mm base (or 40mm) with 120 bolters and kill it. I chalk up the Custodies and everything out of Book VII in the "Beta- unfinished" stage with Forge World being ill equipped and undermanned to properly fix it. There is a lot of meta stuff going on behind the curtains with Forge World and GW.

It can be very discouraging to play the same guy with the same army who never changes their list because it's that good, and everything you try just doesn't work. Only thing I can say is try and find more/different opponents. It'll take the sting out of playing against Custodies all the time.

Kara Sloan shoots through Time and Design Space for a Negative Play Experience  
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




My sense of fair play and optimism says I should be able to shoot any model on a 32mm base (or 40mm) with 120 bolters and kill it. I chalk up the Custodies and everything out of Book VII in the "Beta- unfinished" stage with Forge World being ill equipped and undermanned to properly fix it.


Except that 120 bolters also only do about 6.6666 (edit, had 6 originally but would be dishonest to ignore the .6) with wounds to any form of terminator, Is it unreasonable to expect custodes to be 1/3 more durable than terminators against the most basic weapon the legions have?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/20 18:36:23


 
   
Made in gb
Irked Blood Angel Scout with Combat Knife




 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
Kasper Hawser wrote:
I think he was being ironic about Scoria. I’ll point out that most primarchs can just walk up and destroy a Spartan as well.
Scoria just needs his points to be increased to 400-450 it’s a shame they didn’t do that.


Eh, I think Ferrus, Vulkan, Horus, and Lorgar are the only ones who could reliably do that, and even then, it's not a guarantee.


I think your forgetting Angron st 9 on the charge with armourbane from his axes, Pertarabo with hammer, Magnus is St 9 ap1 without taking into account biomancy, Russ st 8 and Sunder on his axe, Guilliman and his ap1 powerfist.
It’s easier to say the ones who can’t hurt a Spartan: Curze, Corax, Alpharius, Dorn and Mortarion.


You forgot Fulgrim. He's useless at attacking anything with an armour value. But then, presumably that's why his legion has plenty of lascannon support squads.


Whoops yeah we don’t have an emperors children player at our club an oversight on my part.

 
   
Made in lt
Longtime Dakkanaut






Played a game yesterday. No rerolls on shields really, really hurts, especially against rapid firing plasma squads.

   
 
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