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 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
("fighting" in the fight phase are steps 2-6)

Sorry, but this is totally wrong. Where do you get the faintest idea you can skip step 1 of the fight phase rules when you fight outside of the phase? That's like saying "I am shooting in the movement phase, so I can ignore step 3 and can shoot into a combat." (The risk... IS TOO GREAT!)

Furthermore, the FAQ for fighting "again", while not 100% the same situation, clearly states you go though ALL the steps, including Choose a unit to fight with, which states "Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a rule states that you can choose a unit to ‘fight again’, what does this mean exactly?
A: Repeat the entire Fight phase for that unit – i.e., choose to fight with the unit, pile in with that unit, choose its target, choose its melee weapon, resolve its close combat attacks, then consolidate with it.

I think the argument is that you don't CHOOSE a unit to fight because the stratagem covers that step. You are not actually running threw the entire Fight phase. You are only running threw the steps that that specific unit does in the fight phase.

When I use Single Minded Annhilation on a unit to shoot again in the shooting phase I am not picking that again AFTER I used the stratagem. The unit has already been selected. I move on to step 2.

 p5freak wrote:
You can only attacks units you declared a charge against, unless you are already within 1". If you die to overwatch, and you are within 4", you can use the stratagem to pile in and attack. If you didnt charge the unit you can only shoot them.

The stratagem doesnt tell you to skip the first step of the fight phase. It clearly says you can fight as if you were in the fight phase, which means you go through steps 1-6.

Every unit that exists on the table cannot fight in the fight phase. Only units that meet specific criteria can fight, Which is detailed in step 1. The stratagem does not tell the unit that it IS the fight phase. It says they may fight as though it was. The unit already has permission to fight from the stratagem. Not the criteria laid out by step 1.

 skchsan wrote:
The stratagem is clear cut - you fight as if its fight phase if youre slain in combat; you shoot as if its shooting phase if your not in combat.

If you,re in combat, can you shoot?
If you're not in combat, can you fight?

This gets iffy. The thing that actually is SUPPOSED to disqualify you from shooting isn't whether you are in combat or not but rather what weapon you have. Pistols CAN shoot in combat but RAW they don't actually work. However, because we have to fudge the rules to make assault and pistol weapons work regularly we also fudge them for stratagems. A unit that is in combat can have a stratagem used on them that allows them to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. They would get to the step where they pick which weapon to shoot, pick their pistols, and shoot.

It's a bad example you present simply because the shooting rules are already broken and don't actually function by RAW.

Pistols do have a rule that lets them be fired within 1" yes.

But the shooting phase rules say 1) pick a unit to shoot. a unit that is within 1" cannot be selected. 2) pick a weapon to shoot with.

You cannot pick the pistol if you cannot pick the unit first. Just follow the simple order of operations.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:


The RAW issue with pistols and assault weapons have been errata'ed countless times throughout multiple codex/index/core rules. This is irrelevant counter point you bring up.

If we follow your line of logic, then a model without a ranged weapon can shoot in the shooting phase via stratagem despite the fact that the rule specifies that "you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons."

Where has the rules actually been changed? Got a page number of which document?

A model without a ranged weapon can be a part of a unit that is selected via a stratagem to shoot as though it was the shooting phase. You would get to step 2, picking their weapon. They would have none. And the order of operations would end with nothing happening. Just because they don't have a gun or a gun with enough range it doesn't disqualify the unit from being the target of the stratagem.

 Galef wrote:
Ignoring the "steps" for a moment, the important question to ask, is "If this were the Fight Phase, right now, could the character fight?" Meaning, is the character eligible to immediately Fight?
If not, the Strat does not explicitly give him permission to fight. It lets the character "test" if he can fight. If eligible, he fights, if not he doesn't. Just "as if" it truly were the Fight phase.

So if:
-not within 1" of an enemy,
-or not having charged in this turn,
-or if the character has already fought
Then the character cannot fight by the existing rules that the Strat does not explicitly ignore.

-

Because the strat says he "can fight as though it was the fight phase", yes. The strat gives explicit permission for the model to fight. It doesnt say he can check to see if he can fight. It doesnt say test. It says can. Explicitly, can.

 skchsan wrote:

 Silentz wrote:
Selecting "only in death" and paying the CP means you are eligible to fight and therefore eligible to do the fight cycle of Pile In, Fight, Consolidate.

All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action. It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.

You just said it did in your statement.

All it does is grant the unit out-of-turn action.

It doesn't place it into the actual fight phase.

It grants it the action of fighting as though it was the fight phase.

It doesn't count as doing anything i.e. selecting the unit to fight.

See above. It (the stratagem) grants the unit (at which point the unit has been selected) out-of-turn action (fighting as though it was the fight phase i.e. pile in, etc etc...).

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sound arguments on both sides. Thing is - if you are in the "can ignore step 1" camp.

Then you must accept the fact that I can shoot you in the face with hellblasters if they are next to a relic banner even if they are within 1" of enemy models AND I can shoot at whatever I want. I can shoot because it tells my I can shoot as if it was my shooting phase...completely skipping step 1.

Except its obvious rai that the thing that determines if you can shoot is not step 1 but step 2. Which weapon you choose to shoot with. Granted, thats not raw. But then, raw, you can never shoot pistols within 1" or assault weapons after advancing either.